Michelle Harwell Therapy, one story at a time. The “Humans of MHT” series gives a glimpse of the human that sits in the chair across from you and engages in the messy business of life and meaning-making just like you.
Check out our second interview as Sarah Butcher, LMFT has a conversation with Lauren Ziel, LCSW on the idea of “forgiveness” as an integral part of our shared humanity.
Below, you will find the interview transcript.
Sarah Butcher : Hi Lauren. I’ll start with what does humanness mean to you?
Lauren Ziel: Yeah…loaded question. It could go in many directions. Humanness for me, the first word that comes to mind is: “messiness.” In that messiness, I think a more pungent word would be “paradoxical” or the existence of a paradox. We’re messy beings with many different selves. And some of those selves contradict one another and don’t seem to be able to chare the same space; and yet somehow they do. How those selves interact is super messy and how those selves interact with other corporal being’s selves is just this messy interesting mix of experience that is a never-ending unfolding of paradoxical situations. So, I think that’s what it means to me…and then navigating that, trying to navigate skillfully or lovingly, or courageously.
SB: Yes, I relate to that. In just thinking of how many parts of us there are and how sometimes different parts of shine more than others…
LZ: And then parts that we want to shine; the ones we want to put forward versus the ones that we want to keep hidden—that more shadow part of us … and how… there’s tension between them. When they [the shadow parts] show up when we don’t want them to show up, how messy that can get at times.
SB: Yeah, and how we deal with that is part of why we go to therapy maybe.
LZ: Yes, I would hope so.
SB: So you chose “Forgiveness” as your "word" from David Whyte's "Consolations" book where he unpacks various aspects of being human. What is meaningful about that word to you?
LZ: On a personal note, that word being chosen came up at a very poignant time where I was… continuing to practice self-forgiveness. So I think the timing of it was very serendipitous.
Then in addition to that, forgiveness is reminding me a little about what I think about humanness, which is the messy paradox and having to navigate it. You're going to make mistakes; you'll either intentionally or unintentionally cause harm of some kind throughout your life to some individual or entity. How do you square knowing the good parts of you and then also honoring there might be more messy or less desirable parts that harm and that need forgiveness, quite frankly…in order to navigate life skillfully.
So, forgiveness is this interesting paradox, when Whyte writes about it, he’s talking about how in order to forgive, you actually need to be wounded first, you need to have been harmed (or you need to have harmed). Then rather than avoiding that harm, pretending it didn’t happen, or doing a bypass where ‘I am rising above it and it does not matter that I was harmed, I am bigger than that’, he’s actually saying: “No you need to honor the wound, you need to honor the hurt and go towards it in order to actually do the true work/process to forgive.” I think that is paradoxical; we as humans want to step away from our suffering and move as far away from it as possible. We have all these interesting ways that we do that and they work for a time and then inevitably something comes up where that strategy isn’t working anymore so…moving in that paradox of: “I have to go towards something and face it an be in order to heal from it.” I think that’s what I was chewing on about forgiveness, about what he said about forgiveness.
Then my own [forgiveness], how do I come towards the wounds that I have caused myself or others? How do I honor them and be with the uncomfortable feeling that is leveled by those experiences and then choose to honor them and be bigger than the original wound and not let that wound hold me down? Connecting with it while simultaneously moving on from it, that seems paradoxical but at least in my experience so far, it feels resonant. That feels true to my experience.
SB: Yeah, I really like what you said about that. It almost reminds me how pain is just part of the human experience and how hard that is and also how true that is to us being human; how because of that, forgiveness is just so important.
LZ: And necessary. As intrinsic as pain and suffering is to the human experience, I think the ability to sit with that, rather than run from it, and then find forgiveness or a sense of letting go.
Maybe it’s a hypothesis of mine but I imagine that that is also an intrinsic part of human existence, or at least the capacity to. Maybe not the actual full practice of it… But as much as pain is fact, the potential of forgiveness can be fact too. Healing is a fact. In fact, Whyte likens this to a psychic immune system. So our bodies have an innate capacity to heal. If we’re psychically wounded, we experience pain and we take care of that wound, our bodies will innately heal themselves (in most situations). Whyte uses that analogy to say that psychically we can do the same thing. If we attend to the psychic wound, then we have the capacity to heal it. That healing can come through forgiveness.
SB: Thank you for that, Lauren. My next question is how does humanness show up in your work as a clinician?
LZ: It shows up a lot. I mean usually it’s two (sometimes more) humans in a room together being human. So if anything, as contrived or framed out or unique the therapeutic relationship is, at the end of the day it’s two humans relating to each other. That is humanness and that is messy; it can get messy at times and that’s okay.
Adding onto that, I say two humans and that includes myself. There’s often times where I am holding space for my clients but I am as human as the person sitting across from me and to demystify that somehow I am older, wiser, know more. I might be a page ahead of you in a book or I’m on the same page as you but I am not in your individual experience so I have distance from it so…I am as messy in the room as I am in ‘real life’. I am as messy as my clients feel. I feel what they feel. We all have the universal language that is emotion. We might have different words for [describing] it but we’re all sharing a similar experience – paradoxically it’s both incredibly individual and it’s also shared. So that [phenomenon] is constantly getting invited into the therapeutic space. It’s messy and paradoxical and I am right in there with my clients, doing it with them.
SB: Yeah, I relate to that very much in my work as a clinician as well. We’re two messy humans together.
LZ: I remember in my early days, I mean its still early days, (I am thinking of Malcolm Gladwell and the 10,000 hours it takes [to find mastery in a practice}), but how together I wanted to be, how much I wanted to know ‘the thing’, how I needed to be this all seeing all knowing entity [as a therapist]. I think that took away from humanness. I think it impeded me from relating more to a client and I think it impeded my client from being able to believe my authenticity because I kind-of wasn’t. I was holding myself in this figure of a therapist I thought I had to be when, that’s not necessarily the case. I can show up more as myself. I am learning that not only can I be a little messy but that actually invites more real human relation into the space.
SB: Yeah, you’re saying the more in-touch you are with your humanness, the better a clinician you are.
LZ: Yeah, I would hope. I would hope the client experiences that genuineness and [as a result] feels safer and more willing to make contact with those parts of themselves. And I know how hard it is, I know it doesn’t feel good sometimes, and yet you build strength. It’s like reps at a gym. Every time you allow yourself to feel the imperfection and messiness, the wholeness that is you, you get a little stronger there. One rep at a time; with maybe light weight, very light emotional weight. But over time you build a capacity.
It’s interesting to reflect back on my own process, but I have grown a lot. I have grown a lot with my clients, because of my clients. Because they show up in their whole vulnerability, I can do that. I am trying to be more human with them, but they’re showing me their humanness and that allows me to be more human with them. Its this dynamic process that I quite frankly…I love my job. I feel like a nerd saying that, but I do love and appreciate my job—for what I can do for others but honestly what the work can do for me too.
SB: Well, thank you, Lauren, for sharing with us and talking about humanness and forgiveness and your own journey as a clinician.
Lauren Ziel, MSW is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Her clinical experience in medical and mental health settings has shaped her understanding that physical and psychological wellness are interconnected. As such, Lauren approaches therapy from a holistic perspective wherein mind and body are seen as inextricably linked.
Sarah Butcher, LMFT is constantly reminded that we all seek to make meaning out of the human experience, from seeking to understand our fears, insecurities, and wounds, to making sense of our moments of joy, anticipation, and contentment. As a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, Sarah believes that healing happens in the context of genuine relationships.