Mindfully Living and Parenting in the Digital Age: An Interview with Technology Expert Jeff Harwell

Taz Morgan: I’m here with Jeff Harwell. He is our guest this month. We’re centering our theme around social media and technology. With any theme that we are exploring, we don’t just wanna say “Oh, this thing is all bad. Or this thing is all good.” We are interested in the nuances. This is a huge topic that we are trying to grapple with, but we’re interested in how both social media and technology in general are impacting our lives and our client’s lives. In prepping for this interview, I was thinking through episodes of Black Mirror that I’ve watched. [Laughs]. But why don’t you, Jeff, start with telling us about what you do for work?

Jeff Harwell: I’m the Chief Technology Officer at Fuller Theological Seminary…I’ve been in that role for about two years. Prior to that, I was the IT Director. I’ve been at Fuller since 2003 in various capacities within the IT Department. My undergraduate degree is in Engineering Physics and that’s when I got into computers.

I love to build things…I think the reason I ended up in management is because I love to build systems, build processes, build organizations. There’s magic if you can get people working together, believing in a cause and when all the piece are in place…it’s amazing.

[Edited out video due to tech issues with the sound!]

Taz: I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about how your role as a parent has impacted your understanding of technology, in general, and social media, specifically. I think a lot of the news stories I read too [about social media] are about teens and “digital natives.” Yeah, I think a lot more therapists are seeing [considering the implications of] social media being part of a teen’s life. I know a lot of…or I feel like I’ve read that a lot of teens….their dream job now is to be a YouTube star or to be a vlogger. What are your thoughts on all of this? (Laughs).

Jeff: I’m gonna throw a couple of things at you and then we’ll see if they cohere at all. And my soon-to-be teenage daughter is sitting here on the couch. I’ll be telling her…I’ll give her all my secrets. I think, oh,…she’s got headphones on, and she’s watching YouTube, so… (Laughs). But probably listening….

…I’m an adoptive parent. And I think one of the things that…being an adoptive parent does, especially being international when you adopt, when they’re older, it drives home the point that you’re not in control. As much as we want to be in control, as much as we feel like…I think there can be an illusion of control in a lot of ways in parenting…we’re not in control. (Laughs). 

One of the really interesting effects of technology…and you see this facet of technology is driving a lot of [technology] adoption, like widely-used technology is so big in the financial industry because of this fact. Technology makes…you can make everything auditable. So, your phone knows where you, it knows every interaction you make, every email, every text, every place you visit, how many steps you take. I’ve got my FitBit. It knows what I eat; it knows when I sleep. All that information is going off to the cloud somewhere. In theory, if someone put the data stream together, they would know everything I do. Everything I read. Everywhere I go. Everything I eat. When I get up. When I go to bed. 

Taz: And who are the people that you talk to the most. Yeah, it’s all trackable.

Jeff: And then once you combine other people’s phones, you know who I’m with; when I’m with them. So, that is incredibly alluring. We won’t get into the privacy debate or the Orwellian aspects of this. There’s a lot that is very concerning. And you combine that with big data.…and the kinds of things that you can learn from correlating things together can be very surprising and unnerving. But to the case in point, so, my daughter has an iPad. We live in L.A., so it’s not like she goes out and plays because (laughs) you know…somehow getting hit by a car is the least terrifying thing I can imagine. So, she’s either in the house with an adult, or she’s at school, or she’s at some structured social event. That’s how we roll in Los Angeles. Now, I can see all her interactions. 

“I think one of the really important things to realize when parenting in the age of technology is that there is a temptation to micro-manage because you can.”

So, twenty years ago or more…I’m older now…more like thirty…my parents had nowhere near that much insight into my life. They didn’t know all my interactions. I’d go rode my bike; you’d get into all sorts of things. You know…talking to people you hear stories. Parents learn so many years later…(laughs) they would have totally freaked if they had known what we did and what we had gotten into. I think one of the really important things to realize when parenting in the age of technology is that there is a temptation to micro-manage because you can. We now have as parents in the digital age unprecedented insight and control that no generation has had before. I’ll tell you…when you look at growing up under a microscope, it’s pretty terrifying. This idea that…even when we look back at our own lives…when you’re out there on limb, when we got into situations that were hard, when we made mistakes, when we tripped up, there were consequences and that’s where you learn and grow. 

I think the idea of parenting with the end in mind…that when they are turn eighteen, they will go out and have unfettered access to everything we’re scared about as parents. So this idea…Deprivation, I think, is not a good strategy. But I think that we need to kind of realize our own bias for control, realize the unparalleled insight that we have now, that we didn’t have before, and use that to offset….you know, there’s some serious stuff out there; some serious stuff could happen. There are things where we don’t know if the influence is good or bad. And there are some things we definitely know are bad. And we can’t protect them from everything. I do think that understanding technology and creating meaningfully boundaries…like my daughter doesn’t a phone. She’s eleven. She uses my phone a lot. She has an understanding that her mom and I have got all of her accounts, so sometimes we’ll drop in and look at what’s going in. When we see things, we’re gonna talk about it. But I don’t want to fall into the temptation to try to control everything. I want to keep an eye on it and then use things as teaching opportunities when they come up. And parent towards coaching them in how these interactions made them feel, what should they have done, what do they wish they would have done better. When they get to be young adults, they should be savvy. They should know what’s happening; know how to avoid the dangers

“...when we have this all power and control as parents amplified by the technology, it requires a lot more wisdom to know when to apply it. And I think it demands more of us as parents to be in community...”

Taz: I appreciate the angle you took in answering this question. Yeah, thinking about how trackable this all is. And how alluring it could be to control…and how that would impact a child to be under the microscope like you said. I love that point that growth usually happens at the edge…when we’re taking risks, when we make a mistake and learn from the consequences.

Jeff: I think it’s really hard for parents. I mean, just personally to watch your child…and you can see they’re getting ready to step off the cliff. That’s where the judgment comes in. You always want to balance as a parent. You want the consequences to be enough that they learn. But you don’t want the consequences to be so great that it breaks their lives. I’m a lot more controlling about when it comes to looking both ways before you cross the street because you only get one mistake. You know, versus learning how to cook or something like that. It’s hard not to correct them every time they’re doing something that you know will lead them to a bad outcome. But you gotta let them run; let them enjoy; let them make mistakes; let them learn. Those are two really extreme examples of really drastic consequences versus almost non-existent. 

“I think it’s interesting that working with technology as much as I do as a practitioner, and then also as a manager and as an executive and as a parent…I do think the hardest parts are still the human parts.”

Taz: But they are illustrative. And your comment about this illusion of control that any parent has [is illustrative, too]…Your kid is a whole other person. (Laughs).

Jeff: I think it’s really difficult as parents….This requires growth for us as parents. I think as parents we would probably tend to squelch the most promising learning opportunities our kids ever have if we could because they are gonna hurt so much. 

So, if you can see those things coming…do you step in and rob the kid of the opportunity to grow? How do you judge how much difficulty they’re ready for? And I think the kind of wisdom and introspective…and the community it takes….I’ve found so much out of talking with older parents. Like, “Okay, this thing I’m so worried about, that I’m freaking out about - not that big of deal.” You can roll with this one and it’s fine. Versus “This is a thing I’m not really worried about…Oh, that doesn’t go well if you don’t address it.” Yeah, in generalities…but this idea that when we have this all power and control as parents amplified by the technology, it requires a lot more wisdom to know when to apply it. And I think it demands more of us as parents to be in community with people with more experience. The hardest thing about parenting is not projecting your self onto your child and making your child’s issues your issues. And as with everything else, technology just amplifies the tendency. 

Taz: And that reminds of what you were saying before about the importance of awareness; having the dialogue around it; some kind of reflective functioning…not to fall into something. 

Jeff: I wouldn’t want to minimize the real, significant dangers online…I mean, predators, child trafficking. I wouldn’t ever want to be heard saying, “Yeah, yeah, let them go online. It’ll be fine if they get solicited but they’ll learn from it.” That’s not at all what I’m saying. But I do think out of fear of that, we can really go in and…so, we can either say “This is uncontrollable” and let them run into dangers that we should protect them from; let them encounter things they’re not mature enough to metabolize or we say “Oh, we have all these controls and all these dangers, let’s clamp it all down.” I think that’s equally detrimental. So, that it is really a matter of finding that balance and being aware on both sides. There’s a strong draw to do one or either. I think you mess up as a parent if you do either of the extremes. 

“...technology can be a microscope or a magnifying glass that points back to the human condition and what it means to be human and what it means to relate to one another....when we see a technological problem, I think you can often and maybe always go one step deeper, and say ‘What is that telling us about ourselves? What does that tell us about what we want? What we need? How we relate?’”

Taz: Well, I want to be conscious of time, but do you have any closing thoughts or things that you’d want to say? Anything coming to mind from the conversation, anything that makes you think like, “Oh, I want to add this point?”

Jeff: (Laughs) Thank you for listening.

Taz: I feel like so much has come up! (Laughs). Some of the reason that we like to interview people in different fields is that it’s so generative. Hopefully! And also for our community and for people who find our blog. 

Jeff: I mean…I think it’s interesting that working with technology as much as I do as a practitioner, and then also as a manager and as an executive and as a parent…I do think the hardest parts are still the human parts. I laugh, you know, I can talk to my phone and it can write down what I say, which is this close to a miracle…and it does it so well now…it’s amazing. I can tell it “Open this app. Or open that app.” Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Which is interesting. I use Android. Maybe Apple has got this one. But what’s interesting about that is that it’s an integration problem. So, we’ve solved this massively difficult computer science problem of listening to speech and turning it into writing. Really difficult. 

But integration is in the end…it’s the way that technology built by different groups of people can talk to each other. So, when I have this piece of technology and I want it to work with this other piece of technology and it doesn’t work, it’s because the people who built it had different ideas, they had different ways to approaching things, and they didn’t communicate well. They interpreted a standard in a different way. So, the idea that even inside your phone as you’re trying to use it - the things that it struggles with are a reflection of what’s so hard about being in a relationship; working together. I always laugh. I’ve run IT project after IT project - the hardest part is always the communication. How do I help people hear about what is happening? How do we solicit feedback? How are we responsive? How are we working together? (Laughs). You see that pattern over and over again. If anything technology can be a microscope or a magnifying glass that points back to the human condition and what it means to be human and what it means to relate to one another. I think I would always encourage us…when we see a technological problem, I think you can often and maybe always go one step deeper, and say “What is that telling us about ourselves? What does that tell us about what we want? What we need? How we relate?” And I think it can be very enlightening…and it becomes an opportunity to reflect on what our values are and how we want to be different in the world. And an opportunity to act on that in a very concrete way. I mean, it’s part of what I love about technology. 

Taz: Yeah, it almost sounds like a mirror then.

Jeff: Uh huh, it’s not a perfect mirror, but it’s a very informative one.

Taz: I think I want to end on those points. Wow, yeah, it’s such a reflective relationship…technology and humans. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jeff. I really appreciate your time. It’s been very illuminating…this conversation has been illuminating. 

Jeff: Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to do it. Thanks for taking the time yourself. I really appreciate it. 

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Jeff Harwell is Chief Technology Officer at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, and a PhD candidate in Information Systems and Technology at Claremont Graduate University. He has worked in the field of information systems and technology for over 15 years and has a background in Engineering Physics.

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Taz Morgan, MA, is an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #99714, working under the supervision of Gabrielle Taylor, PhD. She has trained in Depth-oriented psychotherapy and works with adolescents, adults, and couples. 

The Girl in the Arena

For years, my father kept this quote from Theodore Roosevelt hanging in his office. I have read it countless times and it always inspires me to be gritty.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

— Theordore Roosevelt "The Man In The Arena" Excerpt from “Citizenship In A Republic” Speech delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France April 23, 1910

I was struck by my Father’s model of grit from an early age. He taught by example that there is always a reason to show up and enter “the arena.” He embraced possibilities, risks and all, because he understood the value of experience. As a mother, I hope to share my father’s message that success is the process of learning and that winning is simply a byproduct of that over time. I am mindful to validate my children’s processes more then their products. I strive to model compassion for my own errors and shortfalls with the hopes they will learn to be gentle with themselves and others. For although, grit requires moving forward in life with fortitude, it is equally important to recognize when to pause and attend to our wounds.

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-Laura “Wayne Gritzky” MacRae-Serpa, MFTI, CCLS has special interests in supporting children and families navigating adoption and the challenges of chronic illness.

We all become stronger.

Our team at Michelle Harwell Therapy attended the LA Derby Dolls and I had the opportunity to interview Oblivienne Westwood, captain of the undefeated Varsity Brawlers, aspiring fashion designer, and all around badass woman extraordinaire. She filled me in on all things derby- from its origins and culture to the somewhat democratic process involved in choosing a derby name. More than that, she shared the ways in which being a Derby Doll has empowered her to approach obstacles in her life head on, much in the same way she is forced to do on the roller track on a weekly basis. --Cresson Haughland, MFT Intern at Michelle Harwell Therapy.

CH: So Oblivienne, should I call you Oblivienne? Or would you prefer your actual name? What is your actual name?

OW: Ha! Oblivienne is fine. I go back and forth between Oblivienne, Viv, Amber (my actual name), so much that I forget how I’ve introduced myself to different people.

CH: Got it. Well then, Oblivienne, tell me about how you first got involved with roller derby?

OW: No one starts roller derby because their life is perfect. I’ve been skating for 5 years as of March. I originally started in a league in Orange County, where I was living at the time. Everybody that you talk in derby will have a different story about why they started, but you’ll find a running theme- they were lacking something or something wasn’t right or they were looking for an outlet. Everyone comes in trying to fill a void somewhere in their life.

I was in a really awful relationship with an emotionally-abusive drug addict and I was trying to leave that relationship as well as the friends and lifestyle that came with it. I have always been the kind of person who is trying to find something new or weird or different to do on a Saturday night. I found an ad for the local league....Within 5 minutes of being there I was like I can definitely do this, this looks awesome. I grew up going to mosh pits and being in the punk rock scene and was always the little girl with all the guys trying to beat them up, so I fit right into that. My relationship was falling apart, my life was falling apart and I thought, let’s try something new. And I did. And I haven’t stopped since.

“No one starts roller derby because their life is perfect.”

— Obliviene Westwood

CH: So you were always the girl in the mosh pits wanting to fight with the boys. How does that mentality play into the sport?

OW: When the derby started in Austin it was definitely a punk rock, DIY thing. Now you have people that are stay at home moms, artists, nurses, doctors, so not everyone comes from that background. When it started that was definitely the case though-everyone was into punk rock, had tattoos, drank beer at halftime, but now its no longer that way. It’s more athletic. I was an athlete and a dancer growing up. And you see more of that in the sport now, people that played sports in college, former figure skaters, hockey players and now as adults they don’t have that as an outlet. As adults we don’t have anything like what we had as kids playing sports, so derby serves to fill that void.

CH: I think that’s a great point. Watching last night it was obvious how much athleticism is involved in the game and that isn’t something there’s much opportunity to express once you reach adulthood.

OW: Absolutely, especially not for women. A lot of amateur or pick up sports leagues are geared towards men. A lot of what we do at LA Derby Dolls is empowering women to find that athletic part of themselves again. We also have a lot of people that have never been athletes, so we give them different options, all with the goal of empowering women to find something within them, giving them the confidence to try something new, to be competitive, to light that fire within them and tell them its ok to be competitive, to look at your competitor and say I’m going to hit that person right now. So often women are taught to be a little more docile and this gives them the opportunity to be more confident, to be aggressive, and for that to be ok.

CH: Would you say that gaining some of that confidence and channeling your aggression has translated into other areas of your life? If so, how?

OW: You see it in so many different ways. Derby is a lifestyle. You’re coming into a community that is very open and receptive and we try to help each other as much as we can. When you have a bad day, you have a cheering section at any time. Your teammates encourage you to be more confident when you don’t feel it for yourself. A lot of people that try derby realize they’ve already tried this new crazy thing, so it makes doing other new things seem easier. Like going out for that new job. I actually completely quit my job and it’s ok, I’ll figure it out. In roller derby you have to do a lot of just figuring it out. In a lot of industries it is women against women, a very negative environment. Women tear down other women all the time. Derby encourages women to build one another up instead of tear them down. We have a junior program for girls 7-17 and I think one of the biggest things we do is teach those young girls to be assertive and confident and instill in them to work together instead of talk shit about each other behind their backs.

CH: As a jammer, what is going through your mind while you’re skating into a pack of very strong women whose goal it is to hold you back?

OW: We actually practice going into walls. Everything in your body physically and mentally tells you this is a bad idea, don’t do this. But, you convince yourself that you can do this. Its very important to be thinking about the right things, not dwelling on the negative, or else you’ll never get past that wall. When I’m on the jam line I’m sizing up the wall- the blockers, my potential paths. I don’t want to run straight into the wall of people, my goal is to not fall down and to get away from them as fast as possible. Most of the moves you make as a jammer are to avoid getting hit or not falling down, trying to find the path of least resistance. Sometimes you do get annihilated and blocked in the back and it feels like the longest 60 seconds of your life. We talk a lot about how every jam is only 60 seconds. You can do anything for 60 seconds. But if you dwell on those 60 seconds, the rest of the game will not be successful. You have to set it aside, move from that jam, and start a fresh jam.

CH: What is it that makes you get back up after taking a really terrible hit?

OW: There was one time I got hit so hard that I was literally knocked off the track. And I remember thinking about this girl who, when she fell down, was always so slow to get back up. We would all talk about how she wasn’t useful after getting hit because she was so slow to get back into the game. All I could think was, “ I don’t want to be that girl.” I don’t want to be the girl that can’t keep up. You want to be the girl that can keep up. You want to be successful for your team and your blockers that are doing so much to help you. As a team, we need to play to the weakest person’s weakest, not the strongest person’s strength. If we can build them up in their weakness, we all become stronger.

“As a team, we need to play to the weakest person’s weakest, not the strongest person’s strength. If we can build them up in their weakness, we all become stronger.”

— Oblivienne Westwood

CH: Do you feel like your derby name has its own persona?

OW: I think maybe Oblivienne Westwood is a showier person than I am in real life. When you put your name and jersey on you’re playing a part, you’re doing a job. It is up to me to go out take photos with fans, be outgoing, and cheer myself on when I do well. I have this out of body experience sometimes where I think, “What am I doing?” My real life self would never do that. But I don’t want to be such a different person that it’s hard to track, it is more that Oblivienne is an enhanced version of myself. The most confident version of myself. Having a derby name is like when you’ve had two drinks-you aren’t stumbling around by any means, but you’re just confident enough to get on stage to do some karaoke.

CH: We came up with our names when we were here last night.

OW: Let’s hear yours.

CH: I decided I would be the Nordic Nightmare because I’m Norwegian.

OW: That’s amazing. You could wear a Viking hat, people call you nightmare for short. Cool makeup, all blue, lots of glitter.

CH: I feel really good about that.

CH: Who would you say inspires you?

OW: I don’t really believe in looking up to someone else. I don’t believe you should aspire to be anyone else other than you. My mom had me really young and was very encouraging to be yourself, do what you want to do, make the right choices, don’t rely on other people to help you, be independent. That was one of the best things that could ever have happened to me. I don’t know if I would have moved here to go to art school if she hadn’t encouraged me that I could take on things like that on my own.

CH: Last question. If you could put something on a t-shirt, what would it be?

OW: I want to do a “babe with the power” shirt, a David Bowie reference. It would have a line drawing of a girl’s face and a lightning bolt that says “babe with the power.”

Oblivienne Westwood, captain of the undefeated Varsity Brawlers, aspiring fashion designer, and all around badass woman extraordinaire, find more about her at  https://twitter.com/oblivionwstwood and support your local Derby Doll community. 

Join the LA Derby Doll Community for a bout this weekend (May 21st) and Fresh Meat (new skater) try-outs in June.  

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Cresson Haugland, MS, MFT Intern has worked in both the community mental health and private practice settings and has extensive experience working with families in transition, couples, adolescents, and individuals. 
 

The "rules" of Poetry

A B B A

A B B A

B A B A

B A B A

     I still remember my first time studying poetry. It was third grade, Mrs. Hornback’s class. Because who forgets a teacher named Mrs. Hornback, right? We learned about couplets and meters and rhyme and the ways in which these literary devices create symmetry and meaning that plain old sentences have to work a lot harder to accomplish.

B A B C

A B A B

B A B C

A B A B

     This was how I was taught poetry. Each line perfectly coordinating with another waiting for it within the poem, knowing that if it did not, something was certainly awry. Imagine my surprise when I was introduced to poets like Emily Dickinson, Mary Oliver, and Bradley Hathway, to name a few. Artists that do not adhere to the structure within which I allowed poetry to exist. Authors who honor the complexity and simplicity of language by allowing words to hang on the ledge of a page all on their own; They are the reason I love poetry. 

“Authors who honor the complexity and simplicity of language by allowing words to hang on the ledge of a page all on their own; They are the reason I love poetry. ”

     Don’t get me wrong; I believe the masters of rhyme and rhythm deserve equal amounts of respect. There is something for me, however, locked within the feeling of being captivated by a single word. An ellipsis that allows me to fill in the blank however I so choose. And in a world with a lot of forms and “sign here’s”, I really appreciate that space.  

Cresson Haugland MS, MFT Intern has worked in both the community mental health and private practice settings and has extensive experience working with families in transition, couples, adolescents, and individuals. 

Poetic Play

     There is something poetic about children’s play. Like a poems’ meter and line breaks, play also has rhythmic measures and choice pauses.  Both can be emotionally charged and offer the opportunity to peer through another’s lens. They require few words to make us think, and often help us learn and reflect on everyday things. In poetry as in play, words may be symbols and contain hidden messages. Both require mindful engagement to read between the lines. Poetry like play can be enjoyed alone or with a group and be short and humorous, flowing and long lasting, or anything in between.       

“In the same way that poetry allows us to share and be touched by the human experience, play allows children to imagine, create, connect and rise about their daily selves. ”

Poetry offers the opportunity to switch off automatic pilot and be jolted by something profound, meaningful and beautiful. In the same way that poetry allows us to share and be touched by the human experience, play allows children to imagine, create, connect and rise above their daily selves.

-Laura MacRae-Serpa, MFTI, CCLS has special interests in supporting children and families navigating adoption and the challenges of chronic illness.

All Imagery from this post are by the author and illustrator Shel Silverstein.

Hometown Poet: Brandon Jordan Brown

As a therapist, I am used to connecting with the experience of the other through words. Listening, empathizing, exploring, connecting. It is a humbling and honoring experience to be let into the psyche of another through their story. The beauty of words is that they do not have to be spoken to land with another person.  Brandon Jordan Brown utilizes the artistic expression of words to not only connect with the other but to help them connect to themselves. Here he reminds us of the beauty of poetry and how it can be used to draw us closer to the human experience. -Janie McGlasson, MFT Intern

JM: Why is art/creativity important?

BJB: There is something about when you interact with it...it forces you to slow down….It pulls you in inward and it pulls you outward...And I think that if you are open to it- and you have to be really open to it- it forces you to confront things that you don't want to or to celebrate things that we forget are worth celebrating. That’s the weird thing about it. Every element or every response that art evokes almost has an equal and opposite response.  It is capable of either/or, both/and, almost simultaneously…I can tell you as someone who practices it, it is terrifying. It makes you feel very vulnerable and brings up all your fears. But I’m sure we will get into that more with upcoming questions.

JM: You’re right, we definitely will. Let’s get vulnerable.

“...Poetry is a way for me to really wrestle and grapple with my experience and to feel validated as a human being.”

— Brandon Jordan Brown

JM: Why did you choose poetry as your art form?

BJB: ...What is so compelling about poetry that I am learning...that it is almost like experiential theology or human-centered in a way that religion can be afraid to be….I think that poetry is a way for me to really wrestle and grapple with my experience and to feel validated as a human being.

JM: We have been talking a lot about vulnerability at MHT...the impact that it has on our relationships, work, day to day life, etc.  Do you see vulnerability playing a part in your poetry?

BJB: 100%. In a scary way. Almost to where I have written poems and sent them out and had...doesn’t Brene Brown call them vulnerability hangovers?... I haven’t figured out how to balance that. Poetry is a craft. It is different than a diary in that it takes revision and editing to create this piece of art.  So when it does connect it has the biggest chance for success.

JM: When it does connect with you?

BJB: When it connects with other people. You want to figure out a way to break open language and find a fresh way to describe something so that a person will feel like they are seeing or feeling it in a new way.  And so, it is hard to figure out the balance of being raw and vulnerable in making art and still to be healthy. I haven’t quite figured it out yet.  

There will be things I write and think “Oh that is too honest”...a moment of pure openness.  And I think there are moments when I feel really ready for that. Brave and able and courageous. Confident enough in myself that even if someone says “Wow, that is really intense” I could reply with just “Yeah, life is intense man. Deal with it.”  And in other times I think that if someone were to say that to me I would crawl behind the couch and not be able to write for a while...Maybe the biggest fear is showing people your wounds. That is really when it opens something up is when you say “this is where it hurts.”

JM: You know, that’s actually something that came up in the last interview. Debbie Edgar talked about this level where you have to find safe people to open up with. Sometimes we choose poorly where a person shows you that “oh, okay I should not have shared so much.” But this is a different form of that because it is not so simple as you just having a raw conversation with a person that you have deemed safe-you are opening yourself up to a lot of people, not knowing who will be a safe recipient and who will not.

BJB:  Yeah exactly. And not that you have to be published or be out there to be serious- but, for me, that is a goal that I have- to put my work into the world…The whole goal is for it to be ingested by others and for them to interact with it.  So when I am feeling healthy, I feel like I am in the role of challenging people to think things through and wrestle with them. To shake and wake them up and open up the space for those kinds of conversations. But when I am not feeling safe, for whatever reason, I can feel that moment that Debbie was talking about of that “oh no.”

My Father's Father's Bones by Brandon Jordan Brown

JM: How do you find that poetry connects you to yourself?

BJB: What I have found in being from the South- growing up where and how I did- there is a strong literary tradition that has a certain flavor to it...that I resonate with.  

... It is almost like that person is leading you to a doorway and opening it up and maybe even standing there with you. Helping to open up a space inside of yourself. I think that we all have blindspots. That is one of the things about writing poetry- you sit down and you write to figure out what you actually think. You don’t necessarily sit down with an idea and a plan of “here is point A and here is point B and this is how I am going to write it.”  But it could be a story or a phrase or a character or a scene and you just sit down and as you start writing it feels mysterious how you even get to the end. It is like walking down a trail and just figuring out where it leads. You may have a scrap of paper or a fragment of a map but you just kind of guess and go somewhere. It brings about a lot of trust in yourself.

JM: How do you find that it connects you to others?

BJB: Writing and being an artist can be really lonely...It is not like I am in a band and can show up to practice and just be one part, it is all on me. So for it to be put out into the world and published it gives you faith that it matters.  

The trick is that people have to be willing to slow down. It is almost as if you have to develop a discipline to sit with things. You have to make yourself slow down to be able to appreciate beautiful things....It’s must easier to watch 6 episodes of a show on Netflix than it is to sit with a book and slowly savor a poem and engage your mind and imagination. It is like prayer or meditation that you have to practice. Both of those things I am also not good at. I really admire people who aren’t even artist but have that “thing” in them to be able to quickly go there because they so easily remember that art is so life-giving and can be what they need. Whatever you’re feeling there is a poem for that or a song for that. It connects us back with our experience and with the experience of the person who made it.

JM: What ways, if any, does psychology or therapy play a part in your poetry?

BJB: I am actively engaged in therapy. My poetry comes up a lot even in talking in therapy. Art comes from our lived experience. So just like therapy helps us process our unique lived experience, art does the same thing. It is a way to explore how we make meaning of what is happening all around us- inside of us, outside of us...To sum it up, I think that they both teach us how to be human. And that maybe that's not a bad place to start….Us as real people with bodies that fail us. I’m interested in art that approaches our shortcomings and in therapy we have to do the same. You have to walk towards failure and learn how to smile at it. I think you could write a whole book on that subject. You should write that.

“Art comes from our lived experience. So just like therapy helps us process our unique lived experience, art does the same thing. ”

— Brandon Jordan Brown

JM: You’re the writer, man.

BJB: Okay, we should write it then.

JM: Alright deal. Let’s do it. Okay, who are some of your favorites and why?

BJB: Easy. The best living poet is a guy named Maurice Manning...He writes a lot about his rural upbringing, his childhood. For me, I have such a love and fondness for where I came from but also have to look back at how it made me and kind of sort through it. It’s like sorting through an entire world- and he does a good job at that. At holding up his memories and the pieces of his life in this fantastic Kentucky place and having such compassion for it.

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Brandon Jordan Brown, LA based Poet

Another guy is Phillip Levine who just recently died last year.  He was a US Poet Laureate and was from Detroit. He is from working class, hard living, blue collar Detroit. And again, he had a love for a place and a people and was able to reckon with hardships and face pain head on.

JM: Do you have a mantra to get you into your creative space or to move you out of a block?

BJB: I just put a note on my computer that just says “Be Brave.”...I think when you take the risk and you are in a good state of mind it feels worth it.  When you have that person that memorizes a poem of yours or a piece of yours lands with someone and you think, “oh man i'm glad i said it because it helped someone.”

JM: What is your favorite word?

BJB: “Maybe.” I think as a writer and as an artist it opens up a lot of space.

Brandon Jordan Brown is a former PEN Center USA Emerging Voices Fellow in poetry, was recently nominated for a Pushcart Prize, and his work has been published or is forthcoming in Forklift, Ohio; Day One; decomP; Rufous City Review; Cultural Weekly and more. Brandon reviews poetry for Invisible City and lives in Los Angeles, where he is working on his first book. You can find him at www.brandonjordanbrown.com

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Janie McGlasson, MFT Intern, has worked in both a community mental health setting as well as private practice and specializes in the areas of attachment, grief and loss, and trauma. 

The Power of Play

      I was fortunate to have parents who saw value in unstructured play. I was encouraged to spend my free time as, a worm surgeon, astronaut or potion maker. I had my father’s entrepreneurial spirit so, my unstructured playtime brewed many business ventures. For example, I was determined to invent weed killer when I was seven years old. I transformed into a scientist mixing concoctions of aftershave, perfume, toothpaste and other random bathroom supplies in old ice cream buckets. I fermented the mixtures under my bed and waited patiently for my weed poison to develop. I poured buckets of mixtures over unsuspecting weeds in the garden only to discover them growing stronger week after week. Failure? Heck no, I had invented plant food! When bathroom supplies ran low, I painted rocks from that same garden to look like ladybugs and sold them to my neighbors as paperweights. I eventually decided to expand from sole proprietorship to partnership with my friend across the street. Due to limited customers, we needed to switch up products and services often. Paperweights turned to lemonade and car washes in the summer months. During down times, we stayed busy negotiating business roles and rules. If I was bossy, then I was met with a kick in the shins or another swift reminder that playing successfully with others required relationship not dictatorship. I learned quickly that planning and creating was powerful when it was a shared process.

“I imagined, created and shared. I learned that failure ultimately leads to success and that success is sweeter when it’s shared with others.”

     Reflecting back on that year, I recognize my unstructured playtime facilitated resiliency through skill building, relationships and a sense of community. I hypothesized, tested and persevered. I imagined, created and shared. I learned that failure ultimately leads to success and that success is sweeter when it’s shared with others. As a parent and clinician, I am not aware of a single structured activity for children providing lessons so powerful. Although many structured activities do indeed hold value, unstructured play facilitates endless opportunities for children to exercise relationships, ideas and choices. For many children, homework and multiple structured activities leave little time for unstructured play. As parents, we are bombarded with “optimal choices” for our children's time. In a society where structured activities are marketed with promises of providing children with an edge, I think it is important to pause and consider what we might be edging out. 

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Laura MacRae-Serpa, MFTI, CCLS has special interests in supporting children and families navigating adoption and the challenges of chronic illness.

Skiing Between the Trees

     Approximately 25 days ago I had the unfortunate experience of skiing knee first into a tree. Did I say approximately? I meant exactly. How do I know the number of days, you ask? Because not a single one has gone by that I have not physically felt the ramifications of this accident nor has the voice in my head whispering her cruel messages of self-doubt and humiliation given me a respite.

“To admit that I need to slow down, however, in some way conveys that I am not, in fact, invincible. And I would really like for you to go on thinking that I am.”

     That’s life though, isn’t it? Right when we feel as though we have found our groove and know how to masterfully navigate the path we find ourselves on, we hit a tree; or a rock, patch of ice, branch, mogul, etc. Roadblocks come in all forms, really. It is in these moments that I am especially terrible at taking the advice I so frequently share with my clients, “Slow down, take care of yourself, listen to the messages your body is sending to you.” It sounds so nice, right?

     To admit that I need to slow down, however, in some way conveys that I am not, in fact, invincible. And I would really like for you to go on thinking that I am. 

     For so long I believed that my self-worth and productivity had a symbiotic relationship. The advancement of one was inevitably linked to the progress of the other. But then I hit my first patch of figurative ice, fell flat on my butt, and learned that I was incapable of over-producing my way back onto the slopes alone. You better believe I put up a hell of a fight trying to ram those skis back on though. Eventually I got there, but only after accepting the hand of another skier that happened to cross my path.

     Inviting someone into the journey of getting back on your feet after a significant wipe out can be altogether terrifying. It requires vulnerability and a willingness to let yourself be seen from a fairly unattractive angle. But from that vantage point also comes the grace of a new perspective. One that may remind you that we are beautiful because, not in spite of, our scars, and that we just might be able to avoid a few of those trees if we pause for long enough to look up and marvel at what is right in front of us. 

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Cresson Haugland MS, MFT Intern has worked in both the community mental health and private practice settings and has extensive experience working with families in transition, couples, adolescents, and individuals. 

Courage in the Face of Failure

All of us at MHT are meditating on the intertwining themes of failure, vulnerability, and courage. These topics are important in how we interact with our clients, each other, and most specifically our loved ones.

Deborah Edgar MFT was a natural fit to help us shed more light on these topics as she has spent time researching the topic of courage. She was my first supervisor back when I was a student in graduate school. She helped me learn how to, in the midst of being a beginner, having a consistent fear of failure, to maintain the courage to be vulnerable and sit in the depths of pain with my clients. - Janie McGlasson, MFT Intern at Michelle Harwell Therapy

Why courage?

First I will start with my definition of courage:

“Courage is heart strength to actively venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, difficulty, and the unknown for the sake of something hoped for and/or believed in with no guarantee of that something coming to pass.”

Can I unpack this? It might help…

“Courage is heart strength”: Courage comes from the word “coeur” in French, meaning heart. So it’s more a question of heart than of mind. It denotes passion, coming from our whole being, not just our mind.

1. “To actively venture, etc…”: It is not enough to imagine yourself acting courageously, or to experience courage vicariously through a film, or video game. Courage is an active embodied on the ground virtue.

2. “For the sake of something hoped for and/or believed in”: What helps us be courageous is hope and belief: for example, the hope that if I jump into the water I will save a drowning child; and belief that saving a life is a good thing

3. I hope I will save a child and I believe that saving a life is good, but there is “no guarantee” that these will actually happen. Courage is courage because of the unknown outcome

So, why courage?

I was so enamored by my patients’ willingness to face such deep darkness. In trauma there is a lot of dissociation (which means disconnecting from one’s own experience) and I wondered, what is it that gives someone the courage to come to therapy, then to- even after dissociating or fragmenting in the process- come again to work yet again towards wholeness. What is that and where does it come from? There are so many reasons to stop coming­ to therapy- because it is too much, too devastating-  so what gives someone the courage to stay on the path towards healing or to growth­? Especially someone who has experienced severe trauma and who has not experienced a lot of healthy relationship.

The perennial question is “to be or not to be”­ which is of course a quote from Shakespeare’s Hamlet­.  That question comes up again and again.­ Do I want to be or not to be? It leads one up to an edge where a person may think “I don’t know if I want to be anymore.­ This is too painful.” I wanted to know what gives them the courage to be. So *laughs* I became curious about that­ that small question­ of the universe.  

What is something that gets in the way of courage?

Hopelessness and a feeling of ineffectiveness: the feeling that whatever I am doing doesn't work. I may start with the courage to try something out but then it doesn't work and I feel ineffective.

Dissociative processes that attack without the patient wanting them to- attacking the links or meaning that are being made in therapy.

Lack of healthy community, relationships that offer true witness  

What comes to mind is what I said earlier about courage: Courage comes from the word heart- so it's having heart. So that which breaks your heart, that which deflates you, that which stops your process- that is what brings you hopelessness.  It is what ultimately will discourage you. I think what those things are, are going to be different for each person.  You know, that same old issue that comes up for each individual. The “I thought I had done so much work in this area and then here it is again- great” that can feel so deflating- feeling like “I have been working this hard and it is doing nothing! Agh”  

Can you tell us about a time you failed?

Me? Personally? Never………...just kidding

My vulnerability in my own clinical work is being what some people call the "omnipotent caregiver." So “I’m always there for you.” Which has a positive side but it can also nurture a false promise. That is, I actually can’t be there all the time.

And I think it is a failure on a bunch of levels. It is a failure towards myself and taking care of myself. It is a failure in terms of grandiosity- as if I can fix everything. A kind of “never fear, I am here!” It’s quite narcissistic.

It is a failure most importantly towards patients because they actually need a human being and don't need someone who nurtures an illusion that there is someone out there that can fulfill all their needs. We need community, all different kinds of people to fulfill different kinds of needs. And sometimes our needs don’t get met, and that’s perfectly okay. So, they actually need my vulnerability, not my grandiosity, because it’s real.

I feel vulnerable in admitting this, but there you have it...

How do you call upon courage in the midst of failure?

Courage in the sense of what I was talking about just now would be to, in the midst of the “oh no,” to not play into the role of being the omnipotent caregiver. To instead play into the vulnerability and not play into being "the goddess of love."

How I understand that failure now is that it comes from a place of childhood narcissism and omnipotence... and I am sure that I am not alone in that...but my courage is actually giving up on that and allowing myself to be vulnerable finally. That the world is big enough to hold me and that I don't have to hold myself and all others- that is the direction that I continue to move towards. That is the courage to be vulnerable. And to trust that vulnerability is actually better for me, others, and my patients overall. It’s really a move towards freedom.

How do courage and vulnerability intersect for you? Or do they?

This is where my definition of courage comes into play. What gives me courage is the belief that when I am vulnerable I experience more love- not less, more hope- not less, more life- not less. So that even if in vulnerability I feel angry or I feel desperate or I have more of my feelings, that these actually bring me more into relationship with others.

Now, I believe that and I still need to risk that, because there is no guarantee that all of that would still come to pass. That is not a given. We all know people that we have taken that risk with and it has blown up in our face. And so there is something very real at play. It is not just “oh I just need to have courage and then everything is going to work out for me.”  No, the very point of courage is that we are fragile, we are vulnerable, we don’t know, and yet I believe that, overall, that is what fulfills our humanity. So I might have to develop wisdom when to risk in that way, but to even have a chance at that kind of experience I need to risk. Not being that omnipotent caregiver, for example, but being my vulnerable good bad self. It’s much safer actually to hide behind being the omnipotent caregiver.

Tell us about a joyful moment in your life that came from you being courageous.

You know, after many failed relationships the courage that it took to enter into my own therapy. That is where I probably first experienced the joy of being me- in a vulnerable way and not in that omnipotent and grandiose way. It was a joy to discover that at the way bottom of me was a sort of beautiful human being...beautiful in the sense of having wounds, having gifts, having flaws- the whole package.  Really being aware of my failings and my gifts. But it took week in and week out of opening myself up to someone.

Do you have a mantra to boost your courage?

I have so many jokes running through my head. *laughs* Like, “Go get ‘em tiger!”

I have to say that this is a hard question for me because I feel like my mantras are more fluid. There isn't one thing, but I can tell you a few things that do give me courage

Different people in history who reflect something of who I would want to be. Sometimes having those visuals when I need courage help to remind me of who I want to be.

Words from a song, book, or movie that come out at me. I will write them down and put it on a post it note on my computer to remind me to be courageous.

One example that comes to mind is a time when a quote from the Lord of the Rings kept coming back to me when I needed it.  It was a scene where Gandalf tells one of the hobbits that he is with, “Hope. There's always hope.” And when I heard that at that point in my life, it somehow galvanized me.  Also, for me, reading the overall story of the Gospel that embodies a flesh and blood love that goes into the mess and though may be afraid at times, gets hurts, stays in, that suffers and, somehow mysteriously, resurrection comes from that. That is the ultimate narrative that gives me courage.

What are you most interested in right now/ what are you reading right now?

Well, as I am writing my dissertation, these are the kinds of interests that galvanize my thoughts. But a specific work would be The Inner Experience by Thomas Merton.  And when I’m not entrenched in this I’m reading Tennis Magazine or The New Yorker.

Deborah Edgar, MFT, The UnSelfish Journey

What is your favorite word?

Sesquipedalian… which is someone who uses big words. *laughs*

What are you grateful for today?  

Janie. *Our Michelle Harwell Therapy MFT, Intern/Interviewer blushes*

And other than Janie, my brother is in town for 24 hours and we get to have dinner. I'm grateful that he reached out and we can share a meal together.

Deborah Edgar LMFT, is a psychotherapist based in Pasadena. She works with adults and families who have experienced extreme trauma. She is currently completing her PhD at Pacifica Graduate Institute. You can find her at http://www.theunselfishjourney.com

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Janie McGlasson, MFT Intern has worked in both a community mental health setting as well as private practice and specializes in the areas of attachment, grief and loss, and trauma.

Pay No Attention to the (Wo)Man Behind the Curtain

They say a blog is born every seven seconds. Actually, I just made that up…but it sounds about right. I have hesitated for years in creating a blog for that very reason.  The thought goes something like, "with all the voices out there, do we really need yet another blog cluttering the interwebs?" Honestly though, that just sounds like fear talking. I think underlying my question is a deeper, more personal one which is, will my voice matter? Will the thoughts and viewpoints expressed here be heard, considered, respected? And maybe therein lies the value of this blog.

“ As therapists we often sit behind the proverbial green curtain, like the all powerful Oz, we listen, take in, then interpret and advise but rarely do our clients get to peek behind the curtain and gain a glimpse of our own humanity.”

As therapists we often sit behind the proverbial green curtain, like the all powerful Oz, we listen, take in, then interpret and advise but rarely do our clients get to peek behind the curtain and gain a glimpse of our own humanity.

The truth is any therapist worth their weight is deeply aware that they are engaged in the same human struggle you are. In fact, the good ones know that this is what gives them the depth to understand you and sit with you in your struggle for as long as it takes.

Now I’m not saying you’re going to get the juicy details of the inner workings of me or my team's lives, you wish! Trust me it’s not that juicy…What I think we can offer is entry into the human experience; what we see, what moves us, impacts us and causes us to wrestle.

So I would like to introduce to the world the birth of a blog, our little blog. A place where this small group of women therapists can share our minds and engage with you in a dialogue about the human experience.

-Michelle Harwell, LMFT

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Michelle Harwell, MS, LMFT is an expert trainer, respected speaker, and licensed therapist in trauma and attachment. She is noted for her specialization in areas of development, attachment, trauma, and neuroscience, and her ability to communicate complex topics with clarity and humor. Michelle is currently completing her PhD in Psychoanalysis from The Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis. She received her BA in English Literature from University of Oklahoma, MA in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary, and MS in Marriage and Family Therapy from the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology.