Solace in the un-beautiful moments: An Interview with Lisa Patrizia, LPCC

January 29, 2022

For the month of February, we will continue our "Humans of MHT" series and hear from Lisa Patrizia, LPCC, as she shares with Dr. Franco, PsyD, about how solace works both internally and externally in each of us and the beauty that can come in un-beautiful moments.

Below you will find the interview.

Paloma Franco: I'm here with Lisa Patrizia. I'm excited to get to know you a little bit more, you chose the word 'Solace' from David Whyte's book, “Consolations,” where he really unpacks different parts about being a human being. So, I would like to know what's meaningful about that word for you?

Lisa Patrizia: Yeah, hi, I'm so glad that we get to have this time, too. The “Consolations” book has been so nice to get to know in so many ways, and I chose Solace because I think it spoke to a lot of different parts of, basically, human experience. I'll read you one of the quotes at the very beginning of the chapter that spoke to me. And that is:

Solace is the art of asking the beautiful question, of ourselves, of our world or of one another, in fiercely difficult and un-beautiful moments. Solace is what we must look for when the mind cannot bear the pain, the loss or the suffering that eventually touches every life and every endeavor; when longing does not come to fruition in a form we can recognize, when people we know and love disappear, when hope must take a different form than the one we have shaped for it.

I thought that was just kind of a lovely way of noting much of what happens to us in life when we come into contact with many different parts of experience. Some that really shakes us to our core, and the places that we need to go, the ways that we need to go internal and ask ourselves some really central or focusing kinds of questions to help muster what we need to be able to find our ground and find our footing again, and be able to move forward and move through the things that come to us just in the wild and wonderful aspects of living and being in the world.

PF: Yeah, I like how you said finding our footing and finding our grounding, in whatever experience is happening. And how central that can be, and connecting...

LP: Yeah, exactly, and I like that you hit on the connecting part, because it speaks of a few different things, right? In terms of the kind of places that we go and find our footing. That's not just an internal process, but it's in the context that we're in, in our world, in our relationships. I mean, relationship is one of the central components of that. When I think of solace, for instance, I think it is a kind of going inward. It's often when we're trying to to reach for what we may need in moments of stuckness, or moments of overwhelm, or moments of real suffering and pain. I often find that there's this kind of looking inward to a sense of wisdom or knowing, and then a reaching outward too, to relationships in our life and even the task of doing that asking ourselves the beautiful questions is how we are relating into and to ourselves, and using that to be able to inform and guide us, and give us comfort and stability.

PF: Yeah, there's something you said there that I was like, OK...there's a combination of our inner wisdom, right, and also seeking that outside, but kind of how there is in that solace, the inner discovery of our wisdom, and how that can help us come out of something, an experience.

LP: Yeah, and, as you're saying that, it's that sense of stretching our capacity to kind of going in, and the finding of the footing and the finding that source of wisdom involves, especially in some of the hardest times, some of those, as he says, the most un-beautiful moments in experience, we find some of those places in us and outside of us that maybe we weren't really familiar with, we perhaps wouldn't have gotten in touch with or gotten the sense of, except for through those.

PF: Yeah, which leads me to kind of wonder, how does humanness show up in your work as a clinician?

LP: Yeah, well, I mean, I think that much of the time, certainly this whole process of encountering the stuff of life that trips us up or brings us to this sense of struggle or loss or suffering or just really, challenge. It's often the thing that causes us to reach out, you know, kind of coming to our sense of — for some reason, I'm thinking of the self as our house, and our internal house, and if we kind of get brought down to the studs at times, through our experiences in life, where some of the facades and the things that we've maybe kind of held out here, they can get really exposed and feel really raw, and the part of the process of finding our footing and finding our ground. I think that those are times where we may reach out then, to others, either others in our world who are known to us, or others who are not known to us yet, but we're kind of endeavoring to, to trust that we may be able to find a sense of solace, a sense of being seen and being understood in others around us. And so I think that is such a central element in human experience, and I think that part of our capacity to come into contact with some of those places in us, and then to reach out and figure out what our next steps are, involves a sense of transformation. And I think that as a clinician, I see my role as one of being a place and a space where we can come into contact with those raw places where we are brought down to the essential elements, and be able to to wonder, and to kind of have a sense of abiding curiosity for the those places of internal kind of knowing, and wisdom.

And as David Whyte puts it, this is one passage that really spoke to me about this idea when it comes to therapy and clinical work, is "Solace is a direct seeing and participation, a celebration of the beautiful coming and going, appearance and disappearance, of which we have always been a part.” And that direct seeing and participation part is such a part of therapeutic work. Where we are seeing these parts of ourselves, we are knowing that sometimes we need and want to have more of a sense of contact with others and, yeah, it’s a place of being able to, in relationship, do some of that finding those questions that help us re-orient to the places that maybe we know, and those that we didn’t quite have awareness yet, were in us.

PF: Yeah, it’s like that discovering that happens in therapy, and how that connects to the word, right, and what you were talking about the word solace, of the space that you’re creating in helping your client or guiding your clients in discovering their inner wisdom, right? Something they already had, and that they are going to be discovering.

Well, this was wonderful. To kind of just hear a little more about how humanness shows up in your work and your work as a clinician, and a little more about that word solace and what that means for you. Thank you for taking the time to sit here with me.

LP: Thank you, Paloma.

Lisa Patrizia, MA, EDS, LPCC, believes deeply in the power of the therapeutic relationship to provide a space of healing and hope. In her work with children, adolescents, adults, and families, Lisa has found that in developing self-understanding and exploring the deeper meanings of what is noticed in relationships there is great potential for moving through difficulties and discovering a place of greater wholeness.

Dr. Paloma Franco, PsyD, is a Registered Psychological Associate working under the supervision of Stephanie Law, PsyD. Dr. Franco believes in the power of stories and the healing power of authentic relationships. As a bilingual clinician, she is passionate about helping her clients further understand their story and the different patterns that may be hindering or affecting how they connect with others or how they view themselves.

Caring for Ourselves Enough to Rest: An Interview with Kayla Tsongas, MSW

December 17, 2021

For this month’s interview, we hear from Kayla Tsongas, MSW, as she shares with us about the necessity for rest in our lives as we care for ourselves.

You will find the transcript of the interview below.

Allie Ramsey: So hello Kayla!

Kayla Tsongas: Hi Allie, how are you?

AR: Good. So you are one of the more recent clinicians to join MHT, which is very exciting -- and also just a wonderful human. We are very happy that you're here. This is kind of a fun opportunity for us to get to hear a little bit more about what makes you tick, and some of your philosophy and perspective on life, which I think will be fun to get to hear about. So, tell me Kayla, what does humanness mean at you?

KT: What does humanness mean to me - as I was reading this question before this interview I found it was such a huge question, and how do you distill down “What is humanness?” So I am just going to choose a tiny piece of what humanness means to me today. What came to mind first was just the care that we have for others and how we show up in our relationships, and how we care for ourselves and what we do to nourish ourselves. And to be able to show up in our relationships as the best person that we can be.

And when we fall short, what do we do then? How do we repair that rupture and how do we sit and think about the ways that we want to care for people and the ways that we want to care for ourselves?

So really mostly what came to mind for me was the caring between people within our relationships. And also in particular the care that we have for ourselves and how we care for ourselves.

AR: Yeah, I like that. It makes me think of the art of caring and how we can learn to care in more complex ways, in different ways overtime. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on the human journey of learning to care?

KT: Yeah, absolutely. I think that is a lifelong journey that we are on and we're all going to walk that path through learning how to care for others and for ourselves. Learning new ways from having different experiences every day. And we compile what we have and we try and care in the best possible way that we can. And you know, throughout our life, I think that we have many different caring experiences with people who are very close to us, with our clients, with ourselves, with people that we just have a passing caring interaction with on the street. And what does it mean to you and what do you learn from each of those interactions? And how do you take that as you walk forward? That is really what I see as humanness; what do you do with what you've learned during those caring interactions, and how do you care the next time, and how is it different or how is it similar? And being able to have some capacity for self reflection on that; the ability to look inward about caring. And then after doing that, care for yourself.

AR: Yeah, that’s the other thing that stood out to me about what you said: the caring for ourselves as part of being humans. And it is pretty special about us humans that we can have a relationship with ourselves. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts or musings on our relationship with ourselves?

KT: Yeah. Another big one. The relationship with ourselves. I also think that caring for ourselves is a lifelong journey and we need different things, in different ways, in different times of our lives -- and even in different days of the week and different minutes of our days. What do we need to do for ourselves? And becoming more in tune, how we learn to become more in tune with what we need, so that we can care for others. And kind of that understanding that we often don't care very well for ourselves, and that's OK. We try. We may try, but in caring for ourselves we may also fall short as we do in caring for others, and learning from that experience as well for the next time.

AR: Yeah. The way you're talking about it, Kayla, just makes me think about how worthy a pursuit it is to care for ourselves well and care well for others, and also how important it is to extend some graciousness to ourselves in that process, because we aren’t going to get it perfect.

KT: Absolutely.

AR: Well maybe that's connected in some ways, it makes me think of the word you chose from our series we’ve been studying as a group from David Whyte’s Consolations: Rest. Can you talk a little bit about what makes that word meaningful to you?

KT: Yeah, it's very much connected to the caring for others and caring for ourselves. I wanted to read my favorite sentence from that, because it's really stayed with me and made a large impression on me.

“Rested we are ready for the world but not held hostage by it. Rested we care again for the right things and the right people in the right way. In rest, we re-establish the goals that make us more generous, more courageous, more of an invitation, someone we want to remember. And someone others would want to remember too.”

So in that passage the being ready for the world but not held hostage by it, how can we focus on finding that space of rest? And maybe it’s that space of caring for ourselves, where we can walk through our day and especially in our profession being clinicians, how we walk through it and live it in the moment and not be held hostage by it. I know that has been, you know, a huge process for me and learning how to try to walk through the world without it taking a hold of me and [causing] stress and anxiety in those experiences.

“Rested we are ready for the world but not held hostage by it. Rested we care again for the right things and the right people in the right way. In rest, we re-establish the goals that make us more generous, more courageous, more of an invitation, someone we want to remember. And someone others would want to remember too”

— David Whyte

What does it mean to be rested and to care enough for myself so that I am not held hostage by the world and all the worries that exist in it? So that is one of the reasons I chose the word rest because especially during this past year and a half during the pandemic I’ve really had to focus on finding new ways to feel rested and to not feel held hostage by the world.

And also walking through this experience with my clients has been such an incredible privilege because it's one of the only times where we're all going through the exact same thing. We may have different experiences within the larger experience, but we're all going through this pandemic together, and it can build a lot of community. It takes a large toll, and so how do we find the best possible way to get rested and to care for ourselves and take care of others during such a trying and scary time.

AR: I like hearing you talk about the journey you've been on learning to be rested yourself and then approach the world from that place [of rest]. I can just hear as you talk about it, how meaningful that is to you. And it sounds like there is something that has kind of like opened up for you. There's a way of experiencing life and relationships that has opened up for you as you have claimed more rest for yourself.

KT: Absolutely. I have felt in the last few years my capacity opening, my ability to care for others opening, through understanding what rest is, and what rest is for me, and what rest is for the people I love, and [what rest is] for my clients. And really sitting in it and feeling into it, it's been such an incredible learning and growing experience.

AR: It sounds like that may have something to do with how humanness shows up for you in your work as a clinician.

KT: Yeah, I absolutely think it is so connected. Particularly, caring for others means you have to care for yourself. And if you don't care for yourself then how can you show up for other people? How can you show up in your work as a clinician if you’re not taking the time to get rest and to care for yourself?

And then the privilege that it is to just sit with your clients and care for them and that exchange between the two of you. In opening up that compassion and being able to have a discussion about what caring for oneself looks like for each person. [Each individual’s] needs are so different. Exploring into that and exploring how a client cares for others and what they can learn about that and themselves. Creating that space of this almost circular caring, where we are caring for each other and it's creating a bigger and more connected community just by spending that time and space.

AR: Yeah, it’s kind of a positive feedback loop that can get going with that. Therapy to change the world, Kayla.

KT: (Laughing) That’s the idea.

“Caring for others means you have to care for yourself. And if you don’t care for yourself then how can you show up for other people?”

— Kayla Tsongas

AR: I can see how much you love helping your clients learn what helps them rest or really become rested. It’s interesting to hear you talk about how unique a process that might be for each of us.

KT: Yeah, it’s so different for every person, and getting creative and playful and finding what rest means and supporting others finding with rest means for them is a true honor and privilege.

AR: Well, Kayla, thank you so much. It's been fun to hear some of your musings and thoughts about life and therapy. And we’re just glad you’re here, providing wonderful therapy in NELA.

KT: Thank you so much. It's such an incredible experience to be in this community.

Kayla Tsongas, MSW deeply believes in the fundamentality of imagination, creativity and play for the development of children and adults alike. She invites clients of all ages to be curious about their relationships, struggles, and dreams within a framework of creativity and emotional safety. She recognizes collaboration between client and therapist as a foundational ingredient to psychotherapy – a process that is marked by deep exploration, which can potentially foster change and build resilience.

Allie Ramsey, LMFT has worked with individuals and families on a broad range of issues, including trauma, relational challenges, adoption, anxiety, depression, faith integration, and aging. She has training and experience in a wide variety of treatment modalities, and works to tailor her therapeutic approach to the unique needs of each client.

The one where we talk about rage: An Interview with Sarah Butcher, LMFT

November 30, 2021

We continue our series, “Humans of MHT,” where each of our clinicians have picked a word from David Whyte’s book “Consolations” to discuss. For this month’s interview, Sarah Butcher chats with Lauren Ziel about the word “Anger” and the ways her perspective of this emotion has evolved through life’s transitions.

You will find the transcript of the interview below.

Lauren Ziel: What does humanness mean to you?

Sarah Butcher: For me, humanness is actually part of belonging to something bigger than myself that connects me to other humans, and also to my own emotions like joy, anger, pain. And recognizing that connecting to these emotions helps me live wholeheartedly. I'm thinking about wholeheartedness in terms of Brene Brown, and how she talks about living wholeheartedly means you are imperfect, vulnerable, and afraid, and also, at the same time, worthy of love and belonging. I think that is a huge part of being human. You don't reach this destination. We as humans are constantly on a journey, and our life is this process of being on this journey in the best way that we know how, and experiencing different emotions, and working through them. Sometimes that's easier than other times. I think that as a whole is something universal to all of humans and connects us. When I think of that, it gives me comfort that there's little me, but then I'm also part of like this bigger whole, of all these other humans in the world. And how the way in which we belong and engage has everything to do with our relationships and the people around us, and not just us as this little island trying to improve ourselves and work through emotions alone. We do that because we are around other humans, and we can't do it alone. That would be impossible, and we can't really grow as humans when we're just solitary and by ourselves. In many ways, that gives me comfort, thinking about everyone coming on this journey of humanity with me.

LZ: There's so much there. As you spoke, I was like oh, and that pings, and that pings. There's so much truth in what you're saying. I love the reframe about thinking about the goal. The goal can be the experience, not getting there. That’s a frame of reference shift that references how you are going to relate to your wholeness. I almost wonder if imagining wholeness isn't the destination, and instead getting in close to your wholeness, as something that you're coming to and moving away from continuously on this journey of life is the reframe. Wholeness isn't the destination, but instead it is every step you take on the journey.

SB: Yeah, I like that. I like what you said about coming towards and then away. Sometimes we feel closer to the destination, and sometimes it feels far away, and that's just part of being human. That's part of the journey and that's part of growing. At different times in our lives, it might feel like, wow, this is really hard, feeling like you're taking these steps back. But yes, it's about being on the journey.

LZ: Yeah, finding contentment. It would be nice to feel content when you feel further away. That would be ideal, in my mind. But how can we accept the contraction and the moving away from what we'd like to be moving towards? And honoring that that’s just, I want to say, like the nature of things, the physics of things. I’m reminded of, I’m stealing it from somewhere, I wish I could quote them, but that all life processes have a natural expansion and contraction to them. If you do a time-lapse, of say, a flower opening up, you will see, if it's slow enough, you'll see that it opens, and then it kind of contracts, opens a little more, and then contracts. This is a natural, normal rhythm. And there's so much, I think, shame or stigma that you should be like linearly moving forward and like always progressing, when that’s just not how nature works, that's not how human beings exist. It is impossible. So yeah, that reframe of it's not the destination, it is the journey, and if you can just be in that process, which I say just, but yeah like that's the work that's being whole. That’s being human. That’s coming to it, like you said Brene Brown said, wholeheartedly.

SB: The hard part is, there's not a road map. While we all are human, and we are all doing this, it’s an individual process, you know, within our humanness. It might not look the same for everyone, even though we're still all on this journey, and that can be really hard to feel like, where are the directions!? But that the goal, maybe, is to be okay and content when we think, oh we're not there. As we learn and grow that may become easier, but we're never going to be perfect and that is okay!

LZ: There's something you said earlier that like kind of brings like a solaceness to, how you were saying like, it's me connecting to me and all of my different parts, but also to the parts of me that are connected to a greater, like ether, the greater collective, like everybody else. And sometimes I frame that, and feel that into, like me, connected to some sort of bigger divine presence, that includes every single other being. And even when I might feel like I'm further away, there's a solace in knowing that not every bit of me is contracting. Like there is still in some way cosmically, metaphysically, or psychically that part still moving towards or moving on my journey, like even if I don't resonate with that feeling. I feel contracted and pulling--there are other parts of me that are still moving in that direction.

SB: Yeah, I like that, and it brings up there are so many different parts of us. At times, different parts of us might feel confident and be like winning out, sort of, and then at times, the part that just feels bad is really taking over, but that we all experience, at the same time, so many different emotions and feelings.

LZ: And how to let the part that feels bad or doesn't feel good enough--that that part has every right to be at the head of the table as any other part.

SB: And as humans we are still worthy when that part is at the head of the table, and that is completely okay.

LZ: Really cool. So to move on to that, the next question, you chose anger as your word from David Whyte’s Consolation book, where he's unpacking all the different aspects, these various words of what it means to be human. So why choose anger, and why is that word particularly meaningful for you?

SB: Yeah. What really drew me in is what David Whyte writes about anger at the beginning of the chapter. He writes, “anger is the purest form of care, and it illuminates what we belong to, what we wish to protect, and what we are willing to hazard ourselves for.” He also talks about it being “the deepest form of compassion” and how being in touch with our anger really helps us to be fully alive and fully here. Those things really struck me because I'm not used to thinking of anger as the deepest form of compassion that I could have for myself, or that others can have for themselves. Really, in order to let in all those parts, one thing I have to let in is the anger because anger is like so much of what makes us who we are.

“Anger is the purest form of care, and it illuminates what we belong to, what we wish to protect, and what we are willing to hazard ourselves for.”

— David Whyte

SB: I think of my kids, to begin with, and part of it is that I think of my kids and the way that they experience anger, and the way that I want to react to them when they experience anger. In that, I want my children to be able to know that anger is okay, and that it is something that they're going to feel, and that they shouldn't be ashamed of it. And it’s not something you can't or shouldn’t feel. Working with them on, now you feel angry about something, so how do we express that? That's where I try to work with them. I have two little boys so they are very busy and, at times, physical. If you feel angry, instead of hitting your brother, what is something else you can do to express your anger? I want to communicate, it's still okay to feel this anger.

As I was thinking about all these different things with my kids, and also because I've seen my kids a lot more because of the pandemic, I was thinking about Donald Winnicott, who was a pediatrician and a psychoanalyst. Winnicott talks about the baby’s desire to meet up against, and feel its own power of movement against an object, and that kind of describes anger and how important this is for even an infant. And anger means the child has got as far as believing in someone else. As an infant, a part of development is you start to recognize that you are a separate being than your mother. That's a good thing, and part of recognizing that, Winnicott explains, is you know, feeling some aggression, and this helps the child separate into their own self. Winnicott talks about when the mother accepts this anger without retaliation, and allows this aggression, is really a time when the child can grow, and sort of, integrate their different selves. So that the child at a really young age can know that anger is not deadly, and that she or he can learn to incorporate all emotions as part of their self, so they don't have to repress an emotion.

I think this goes back to belonging as a human and living wholeheartedly, and that we accept all these different emotions we have. They are not bad or wrong. I think back to my own kids and helping them tolerate their anger and accept it and find outlets for their anger. And then of course, my own feelings of anger and impatience. I think motherhood really gets you in touch with just some of your more raw emotions, some of them being anger and trying to help your child deal with it, trying to help yourself deal with it. You feel frustration and feel, you know, sometimes helpless or tired, and that is something this year that I’ve really thought about--how I show and express my own anger and what my children can learn about that. That it’s okay to be angry, but how do I show it and express that in a way that is healthy, that my children can learn from.

And then the other thing that really made me really drawn to the anger chapter is thinking about 2020 and how important anger has been, and coming in to 2021, in actually changing our country, hopefully for the better.

I read this article in The Atlantic by Myisha Cherry and she talked about how anger further expresses how much protesters like in Black Lives Matter treasure justice. One thing that I found interesting is she talks about how fear causes us to run away, but anger motivates us to run towards a target instead of away, and it makes us eager to approach and tackle an issue head-on. So that without anger, activists, say activists this year, protesting police violence, might stay home. And that we need that anger to protest what is unjust, what is racist, what is not okay, and that anger is a key and central emotion to all of that, and without it, things might not change at all. So yeah, I think there's many different ways, in many different parts of my life this year that I've just thought about what anger means. And then this chapter really helps me to think about and like treasure anger, that sounds kind of weird, but really appreciate it in a way that I had never thought to appreciate anger before.

“we need that anger to protest what is unjust, what is racist, what is not okay, and that anger is a key and central emotion to all of that, and without it, things might not change at all.”

— Sarah Butcher

LZ: Two parts: David's reframe of anger being like the ultimate expression of care and compassion, and then with Ms. Cherry’s article that anger is necessary and anger allows us to move towards something, move towards and make actionable movements towards what our values and needs are. So there's this very like alive positive movement that is stoked by anger, which is such an interesting way to look at it because in my experience, perhaps, culturally, perhaps gendered, the intersections abound, but anger hasn't been something that is tolerable or OK. That part of me has had to die and go away or not be felt because oftentimes my experience of anger is, I feel incredibly uncomfortable when I'm around it, or if I experience or tap into my own anger towards someone or something, like I feel bad. My instinct is like, oh push that down. It’s not allowed to be here. And so it is just so opening and freeing about this rewrite of it, and actually to hold it as such a necessary emotion. It's an emotion that is evolved over time, that we can get in touch with in constructive ways. It is okay to feel it, and to express it for a greater good, even on a selfish level, for us to be in touch with what our needs and values are, like anger will show us, like we will experience anger if those aren't getting met and those are being violated. Anger will show us exactly what they are. Yeah it's just like a little dumbfounding, a complete 180 from how I felt about anger in the past.

SB: Allowing yourself to feel anger is an act of compassion and it is like a roadmap for what do I value, what do I need, what do I require as a human being.

“Allowing yourself to feel anger is an act of compassion and it is like a roadmap for what do I value, what do I need, what do I require as a human being.”

— Sarah Butcher

LZ: And you were speaking to your experience in motherhood. It’s like you come into contact, because of everything that you're holding and the complexity of your life, you come into contact with your frustration and your anger, and I wonder what is that showing you? Are you really tired? Did you eat? Have you gotten enough space to be Sarah for a second and not mom or wife or whatever? Anger Illuminating, like, oh Sarah hasn't gotten to act into her values or needs in some way, and yeah, just anger being the sign post for that is a way to express your anger, in a constructive way, that allows it out of your system. When it gets turned in, towards you, you can get hopeless and depressed and heavy. Yeah, you’ve got to feel your anger and do something with it. There’s many things you can do with it, and it’s just a matter of how it’s expressed for you that works well for you.

SB: Yeah, and admitting to it in the first place.

LZ: Yeah. Hi I'm Lauren and I experience anger. Definitely, just even saying that, I don't know, as a kid, what’s anger? Everything is fine. Thank you for this. I’m definitely going to turn the camera off and chew on this for a little while. I always like those conversations, so thank you, Sarah.

SB: Thank you.

Lauren Ziel, LCSW is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Her clinical experience in medical and mental health settings has shaped her understanding that physical and psychological wellness are interconnected. As such, Lauren approaches therapy from a holistic perspective wherein mind and body are seen as inextricably linked.

Sarah Butcher, LMFT is constantly reminded that we all seek to make meaning out of the human experience, from seeking to understand our fears, insecurities, and wounds, to making sense of our moments of joy, anticipation, and contentment. As a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, Sarah believes that healing happens in the context of genuine relationships.

A Stepping Stone Toward Compassion: An Interview with Allie Ramsey, LMFT

October 28, 2021

This month in our Humans of MHT series, Kayla Tsongas, MSW has a conversation with Allie Ramsey, LMFT about the power of limitedness and how denial can play a part in extending compassion to those who may think differently around us.

You will find the interview transcript below.

Kayla Tsongas: Hi Allie, welcome, thank you for meeting with me today.

Allie Ramsey: I'm excited, it will be fun.

KT: Great, well we have a couple set questions, so I can get started with the first question and we can just have a conversation as we go along, how does that sound?

AR: That sounds good!

KT: The first question is what does humanness mean to you?

AR: I had fun kind of thinking about that question because we did an interview series like this and that was one question we had to ponder a couple of years back, so it was interesting to think about my initial gut answer to that now and how that compares to what it was before and a lot of it is the same. I think I talked last time about how to me, I think a lot of what humanness means is just an incredible worthiness that an individual has to be loved and by loved, I mean to be respected and paid attention to and even maybe to be sacrificed for if the situation calls for it. But another part that comes to mind for me these days as an important component as well is limitedness. I think part of being human is to be limited, so I've been chewing on that a lot lately just maybe COVID or just experiencing my limits over time, I've come to maybe even valuing that element of our humanness, I think there's something freeing in it.

KT: Yeah absolutely, I love that idea of the limitedness as we can look at humanness in our society sometimes we put a lot of pressure on everyone around us to be something specific or be bigger than we truly can be, and putting some thought into what we are capable of to show up every day and how that may be changing and how some days are more limited and other days we have more capacity and to put a mind to that in a way that is very loving of the limitedness.

AR: Yes, that’s a good frame, I think maybe I'm still aspiring towards being loving of the limitedness. We do put a lot of pressure on other people, not intentionally, and also on ourselves to not have the limits that we have, and I think it takes grieving to move through that because sometimes the things that we are hoping for, the ways we're hoping people won't have limits would make a big difference for us you know. So, it can really be a loss to accept the limits but then it allows us to enjoy what's possible.

KT: Absolutely, that kind of brings to mind the expectations that we have for ourselves and for others around us and how much do we expect from the relationships that we have, and for people to show up in a specific way, or for ourselves to show up in a specific way. Those expectations relating to the limitedness can be difficult to navigate and how feelings around and to truly sit and think about what your expectations for yourself and others are and what that means in our individual humanness as well.

AR: I also think we live in, maybe in LA in particular, but just in general, in the States, we glorify business, like it's the only valid reason for saying no to something is because you're too busy. I saw someone writing about that and just encouraging us to get in the habit of saying, I'm not too busy I'm just limited, and I think that is probably part of why that word came to mind it it's just felt resonant for me. There's something about choosing to really intentionally be aware of our limitedness that I think maybe makes us wiser about how we spend our time instead of just cramming it in until we're at absolute max capacity.

“There’s something about choosing to really intentionally be aware of our limitedness that I think maybe makes us wiser about how we spend our time instead of just cramming it in until we’re at absolute max capacity.”

— Allie Ramsey

KT: Yeah really love that, I would like to embody that more, to say no because I am limited in my capacity and not to just say no because I'm already too busy and past my limits. I like that a lot. Do you feel ready to move on to my next question?

AR: Sure.

KT: You chose Denial as your word from David Whyte’s Consolations, where he unpacks various aspects of being human and I'd love to talk about what was meaningful about this word to you.

AR: Yes, denial stood out to me because, well I don't know why it seems like it is sort of a fun word to me, but I like the way David Whyte talks about denial, he talks about how denial belongs to all of us, and no human is really above denial in fact is something that it has some important functions that it serves for us. It buffers us from elements of reality that we are not yet equipped to face. He kind of talks about for children, for example, there are really good functions for denial, like young children aren’t meant to fully be grappling with the fact that they're going to die one day, and we're not really meant to force that into their minds too early. So, there are good things about being able to hold outside of, like on the periphery of our vision, different difficult aspects of life and of reality because it would be too much for us. So, if we can stay a certain amount of in denial then it allows us to live in and to be present to life to the extent that we're able to. I think it's just a good reminder that that is a process that doesn't ever really fully end so children obviously have maybe the most denial, some of that is also just brain development and capacity to understand things, but we continue to have certain amounts of denial throughout our entire life span and sometimes we probably move in and out of denial. I know I've experienced myself moving in and out of denial about how tenuous life is depending on how much I'm confronted with that, whether for myself or for loved ones, and when I'm not being heavily confronted with it, it's typically on the periphery of my vision. I'm not emotionally grappling with it every day. What I liked about what David Whyte talked about is that it belongs to all of us and has good functions and then also he talks about how it's kind of a stepping stone for us to have some compassion for other people. So, what I have thought about maybe with COVID and with how politically intense this past year has been, is how easy it is to have contempt for people who live in denial of different things than we do and there's something helpful about recognizing that there is a certain amount of denial in all of us that just maybe moves us towards a little bit of humility and compassion, even if we still disagree. Even if we still need to hold people accountable depending on the circumstances, but maybe it can help move us out of contempt and I don't think that's a very good place for us to dwell, so anything that helps move us out of contempt, I like.

“There’s something helpful about recognizing that there is a certain amount of denial in all of us that just maybe moves us towards a little bit of humility and compassion, even if we still disagree. ”

— Allie Ramsey

KT: Yes, contempt feels very polarizing. Compassion feels much more community oriented, bringing people together. I appreciate what you're saying as you're speaking about denial, it's making me think of the inclusivity that thinking about denial in this way can actually bring and how it can bring us all together. Then thinking about capacity and what capacity do we have for dealing with the really tough things that go on in our lives, that maybe denial is that protective mechanism that we're using to keep ourselves safe, and everyone has that.

AR: Yes and just functional. Because it takes so much emotional and mental space to really, fully attend to different things at once, I guess that goes back to limitedness.

KT: It's all connected.

AR: It's all connected.

KT: Absolutely. Then the last question for today is how does humanness show up in your work as a clinician?

AR: Well, I guess going back to the two things that I mentioned before that stand out to me about humanness, is the first being worthiness, to be loved, and again in that meaning like being respected and paid attention to and be treated honestly. First of all, I have to get grounded in that myself, my own worthiness, and for me I think my faith is a really big foundation to be able to dwell there and feel rooted there. But if I'm feeling secure in that mindset towards myself, I find that I able to be present in a way that I don't think I would be able to otherwise in my clinical work. But also, it's a framework that I bring with me, that kind of perspective of the worthiness, of achievement, to be respected and to be treated honestly and paid attention to that makes my clinical work feel really meaningful to me because any session is an opportunity to do that. I think also there is a way that we often don't expect to be treated or received in that kind of way when we reveal something that we find to be shameful about ourselves or we feel like is a weakness. I know from my own experiences that when people have received me in a respectful and caring and empathetic way, I feel something like that, it's been pretty transformative. So, I think therapy is an opportunity where I get a chance to extend that to others and that's a real gift for me. That's one of the best things ever, I really love that. Then limitedness shows up in my work as a clinician because I like fall short all the time, even if I don't want to and you wish to not ever do that for my clients, it is going to happen. Something that I like about therapy though is that, at least in therapy, we have a chance to really talk about what that is like for my clients. Disappointment like that is such a part of human relationships, any relationship, that lasts, you know, maybe longer than a week. But a lot of the times it's too charged or difficult to talk about outside of therapy, maybe for the first time, and in therapy we can learn how to talk about what it feels like to be disappointed and work through the meaning of that, and the impact of that. I find that there can be something redemptive or healing. Even when disappointment comes, there can be something good that comes out of processing what it's like and staying connected or finding a way back to feeling connected after that.

“In therapy we can learn how to talk about what it feels like to be disappointed and work through the meaning of that, and the impact of that. I find that there can be something redemptive or healing. Even when disappointment comes, there can be something good that comes out of processing what it’s like and staying connected or finding a way back to feeling connected after that.”

— Allie Ramsey

KT: Well thank you so much for spending the time today, it was a lovely conversation.

AR: You're welcome, thank you Kayla.

Lost and Found: The Mystery and Practice of Deep Friendship

September 29, 2021

Check out our latest interview in our Humans of MHT series, as Lisa Patrizia, MA, EDS, LPCC has a conversation with Paloma Franco, MS on the idea of “friendship” and how it plays a vital role in our lives and our humanity.

You will find the interview transcript below.

Lisa Patrizia: Hello, I'm here with Paloma Franco to talk about humanness and to share some space with you and I'm really excited to do so.

Paloma Franco: Hi

LP: Hi

PF: I'm excited too.

LP: Well, I'm curious, Paloma, you chose the word “friendship” from David Whyte’s book Consolations, a book where he unpacks various aspects of being human, and I'm curious to hear what is meaningful to you about that word?

PF: Yeah, as I was looking through the book and trying to find what word I gravitated towards, the word friendship just stuck out to me. Everything that's written by David Whyte is lovely, but this word specifically and the idea of friendship really struck me. This idea of being known and seen by someone. There's a portion that he says, “but no matter the medicinal virtues of being a true friend or sustaining a long close relationship with another, the ultimate touchstone of friendship is not improvement, neither of the other nor of the self. The ultimate touchstone is witness, the privilege of having been seen by someone and the equal privilege of being granted the sight of the essence of another, to have walked with them and to have believed in them, and sometimes just to have accompanied them for however brief a span, on a journey impossible to accomplish alone.” So that is like this bearing witness to another being and their experience and journeying with them. I think it's so beautiful to see friendship in that way, that it is not a needing to improve someone. It’s like let's just sit together and journey in life together. Just the being seen and known I find so beautiful in that experience of friendship.

“[Friendship is] bearing witness to another being and their experience and journeying with them. I think it’s so beautiful to see friendship in that way, that it is not a needing to improve someone. It’s just like “let’s just sit together and journey in life together”

— Paloma Franco

LP: Yeah, and how powerful that is. The witness, as you said. The just being with what is, not having an attachment to a movement towards one thing or another but the ability to be with someone—journeying with and having your experience seen and known and born witness to.

PF: Yeah, there was something else he says at the beginning of the chapter that I also found super meaningful, “Friendship not only helps us see ourselves through another’s eyes but can be sustained over the years only with someone who has repeatedly forgiven us for our trespasses as we must find it in ourselves to forgive them in turn.” So this idea of forgiveness in that friendship, in that relationship, and seeing ourselves through their eyes and vice versa. I guess it comes to my mind like a garden of flowers. Two flowers together and journeying through all different seasons of life and then coming back up and standing with them as flowers stand next to each other.

LP: Yeah I love that imagery and the visual and the way that evokes that sense that says both things are being so renewed and there is so much movement and growth happening all the while having bearing together in one spot, yet, how much is happening in each kind of renewal and that sense of standing together with and the power of that being with.

PF: Yeah, yeah, friendship.

LP: I feel like I am going to have the image of these flowers in the field. That was such a good metaphor for that. I'm curious to hear from you more about, whether it's in relation to friendship in this sense of bearing witness to and the forgiveness aspect to that you were noting, I'm curious to hear more about your thoughts about this idea of being human which so much of what we're thinking in this work?

PF: Yeah, as I was thinking about that word, a quote by an actress (activist, director, and producer) Sophia Bush came to my mind. I actually have a mug that I painted with the words of it actually. I think of this quote as I think about humanness: “you're allowed to be a masterpiece and a work in progress simultaneously.” So this idea you can be a masterpiece and also be a work in progress like the two opposites of that and coexisting in that

LZ: Yeah

PF: And that's what I feel like humanness is, we can be happy and sad and not just those two but an experienced multitude of feelings and yet it's all very human to experience those feelings. This idea of being in progress and also feeling like a masterpiece or being a masterpiece so that's what I think about in terms of humanness and how beautiful that can be and also how messy that can feel and how those two can feel scary to coexist together and how that's a possibility that can happen, to be in those two spaces.

“We can be happy and sad and not just those two, but an experienced multitude of feelings, and yet it’s all very human to experience those feelings.”

— Paloma Franco

LP: Yeah, I really love that and that's not a quote that I had come into contact with before and how true and how wonderfully put. I really love the way that you are connecting those and the sense of it being in process at the sense of scariness the sense of messiness and beauty and it's kind of all of those things wrapped up together.

PF: Yeah, and then connecting back to that word friendship, it's like having someone to be there in witness and see you in that, in those two parts: the masterpiece and the pain and the work in progress and how good that feels to be known by someone in that way.

LP: It makes me think that as you're talking about that, that sense of the acceptance of things existing altogether and the witness part of it, the sense of all of those aspects.

PF: Yeah 'cause you know in the messiness, sometimes we don't want others to see that. With friendship, this being seen by someone and with what David Whyte was saying, the forgiveness that happens or the seeing yourself through their eyes and being embraced in that as well in that work in progress and masterpiece.

LP: That makes me think of how important and impactful that is to be able to be in that together, to have that held in that way.

PF: Yeah.

LP: To that friendship, those flowers right alongside.

PF: Yeah.

LP: Well, thank you so much, it's so nice to connect with you and I really appreciate you sharing your reflections on all of this.

PF: Thank you for listening!

LP: See you.

PF: Bye!

Paloma Franco is a Registered Psychological Assistant working under the supervision of Stephanie Law, PsyD. Paloma believes in the power of stories and the healing power of authentic relationships. As a bilingual clinician, she is passionate about helping her clients further understand their story and the different patterns that may be hindering or affecting how they connect with others or how they view themselves.

Hurt Reimagined Through Forgiveness: An Interview with Lauren Ziel, LCSW

August 31, 2021

Michelle Harwell Therapy, one story at a time. The “Humans of MHT” series gives a glimpse of the human that sits in the chair across from you and engages in the messy business of life and meaning-making just like you.

Check out our second interview as Sarah Butcher, LMFT has a conversation with Lauren Ziel, LCSW on the idea of “forgiveness” as an integral part of our shared humanity.

Below, you will find the interview transcript.

Sarah Butcher : Hi Lauren. I’ll start with what does humanness mean to you?

Lauren Ziel: Yeah…loaded question. It could go in many directions. Humanness for me, the first word that comes to mind is: “messiness.” In that messiness, I think a more pungent word would be “paradoxical” or the existence of a paradox. We’re messy beings with many different selves. And some of those selves contradict one another and don’t seem to be able to chare the same space; and yet somehow they do. How those selves interact is super messy and how those selves interact with other corporal being’s selves is just this messy interesting mix of experience that is a never-ending unfolding of paradoxical situations. So, I think that’s what it means to me…and then navigating that, trying to navigate skillfully or lovingly, or courageously.

SB: Yes, I relate to that. In just thinking of how many parts of us there are and how sometimes different parts of shine more than others…

LZ: And then parts that we want to shine; the ones we want to put forward versus the ones that we want to keep hidden—that more shadow part of us … and how… there’s tension between them. When they [the shadow parts] show up when we don’t want them to show up, how messy that can get at times.

SB: Yeah, and how we deal with that is part of why we go to therapy maybe.

LZ: Yes, I would hope so.

SB: So you chose “Forgiveness” as your "word" from David Whyte's "Consolations" book where he unpacks various aspects of being human. What is meaningful about that word to you?

LZ: On a personal note, that word being chosen came up at a very poignant time where I was… continuing to practice self-forgiveness. So I think the timing of it was very serendipitous.

Then in addition to that, forgiveness is reminding me a little about what I think about humanness, which is the messy paradox and having to navigate it. You're going to make mistakes; you'll either intentionally or unintentionally cause harm of some kind throughout your life to some individual or entity. How do you square knowing the good parts of you and then also honoring there might be more messy or less desirable parts that harm and that need forgiveness, quite frankly…in order to navigate life skillfully.

So, forgiveness is this interesting paradox, when Whyte writes about it, he’s talking about how in order to forgive, you actually need to be wounded first, you need to have been harmed (or you need to have harmed). Then rather than avoiding that harm, pretending it didn’t happen, or doing a bypass where ‘I am rising above it and it does not matter that I was harmed, I am bigger than that’, he’s actually saying: “No you need to honor the wound, you need to honor the hurt and go towards it in order to actually do the true work/process to forgive.” I think that is paradoxical; we as humans want to step away from our suffering and move as far away from it as possible. We have all these interesting ways that we do that and they work for a time and then inevitably something comes up where that strategy isn’t working anymore so…moving in that paradox of: “I have to go towards something and face it an be in order to heal from it.” I think that’s what I was chewing on about forgiveness, about what he said about forgiveness.

Then my own [forgiveness], how do I come towards the wounds that I have caused myself or others? How do I honor them and be with the uncomfortable feeling that is leveled by those experiences and then choose to honor them and be bigger than the original wound and not let that wound hold me down? Connecting with it while simultaneously moving on from it, that seems paradoxical but at least in my experience so far, it feels resonant. That feels true to my experience.

SB: Yeah, I really like what you said about that. It almost reminds me how pain is just part of the human experience and how hard that is and also how true that is to us being human; how because of that, forgiveness is just so important.

LZ: And necessary. As intrinsic as pain and suffering is to the human experience, I think the ability to sit with that, rather than run from it, and then find forgiveness or a sense of letting go.

Maybe it’s a hypothesis of mine but I imagine that that is also an intrinsic part of human existence, or at least the capacity to. Maybe not the actual full practice of it… But as much as pain is fact, the potential of forgiveness can be fact too. Healing is a fact. In fact, Whyte likens this to a psychic immune system. So our bodies have an innate capacity to heal. If we’re psychically wounded, we experience pain and we take care of that wound, our bodies will innately heal themselves (in most situations). Whyte uses that analogy to say that psychically we can do the same thing. If we attend to the psychic wound, then we have the capacity to heal it. That healing can come through forgiveness.

SB: Thank you for that, Lauren. My next question is how does humanness show up in your work as a clinician?

LZ: It shows up a lot. I mean usually it’s two (sometimes more) humans in a room together being human. So if anything, as contrived or framed out or unique the therapeutic relationship is, at the end of the day it’s two humans relating to each other. That is humanness and that is messy; it can get messy at times and that’s okay.

Adding onto that, I say two humans and that includes myself. There’s often times where I am holding space for my clients but I am as human as the person sitting across from me and to demystify that somehow I am older, wiser, know more. I might be a page ahead of you in a book or I’m on the same page as you but I am not in your individual experience so I have distance from it so…I am as messy in the room as I am in ‘real life’. I am as messy as my clients feel. I feel what they feel. We all have the universal language that is emotion. We might have different words for [describing] it but we’re all sharing a similar experience – paradoxically it’s both incredibly individual and it’s also shared. So that [phenomenon] is constantly getting invited into the therapeutic space. It’s messy and paradoxical and I am right in there with my clients, doing it with them.

SB: Yeah, I relate to that very much in my work as a clinician as well. We’re two messy humans together.

LZ: I remember in my early days, I mean its still early days, (I am thinking of Malcolm Gladwell and the 10,000 hours it takes [to find mastery in a practice}), but how together I wanted to be, how much I wanted to know ‘the thing’, how I needed to be this all seeing all knowing entity [as a therapist]. I think that took away from humanness. I think it impeded me from relating more to a client and I think it impeded my client from being able to believe my authenticity because I kind-of wasn’t. I was holding myself in this figure of a therapist I thought I had to be when, that’s not necessarily the case. I can show up more as myself. I am learning that not only can I be a little messy but that actually invites more real human relation into the space.

SB: Yeah, you’re saying the more in-touch you are with your humanness, the better a clinician you are.

LZ: Yeah, I would hope. I would hope the client experiences that genuineness and [as a result] feels safer and more willing to make contact with those parts of themselves. And I know how hard it is, I know it doesn’t feel good sometimes, and yet you build strength. It’s like reps at a gym. Every time you allow yourself to feel the imperfection and messiness, the wholeness that is you, you get a little stronger there. One rep at a time; with maybe light weight, very light emotional weight. But over time you build a capacity.

It’s interesting to reflect back on my own process, but I have grown a lot. I have grown a lot with my clients, because of my clients. Because they show up in their whole vulnerability, I can do that. I am trying to be more human with them, but they’re showing me their humanness and that allows me to be more human with them. Its this dynamic process that I quite frankly…I love my job. I feel like a nerd saying that, but I do love and appreciate my job—for what I can do for others but honestly what the work can do for me too.

SB: Well, thank you, Lauren, for sharing with us and talking about humanness and forgiveness and your own journey as a clinician.

Lauren Ziel, MSW is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Her clinical experience in medical and mental health settings has shaped her understanding that physical and psychological wellness are interconnected. As such, Lauren approaches therapy from a holistic perspective wherein mind and body are seen as inextricably linked.

HUMANS OF MHT: AN INTERVIEW ON "MEMORY" WITH LAUREN FURUTANI, LMFT

July 21, 2021

We’re bringing back a series at our practice called “The Humans of MHT.” Originally launched in 2017, it told the stories of what it meant for us clinicians to be human. For this round, our group read David Whyte’s book “Consolations” together, and each week, a different clinician selected a word that was meaningful to them in relation to their humanness and presented it to the group. Our conversations centered on the idea that healing happens in the context of real relationships and real people — not perfect, unknown others, but humans genuinely engaged in the messy business of life and meaning-making just like you.

We'll be releasing one interview a month, so you can get a glimpse of the humans that sit in the chair across from you. Check out our first interview on “Memory” with Lauren Furutani, LMFT and Executive Director at MHT. - Michelle Harwell, PsyD, LMFT

Below you will find the interview transcript.

Michelle Harwell: Well, good to see you, Lauren.

Lauren Furutani: Hi.

MH: Hi. You got the memo to wear polka dots.

LF: I love how we showed up together with our polka dots!

MH: Yeah.

LF: I chose the word “memory,” which probably feels like a pretty obvious choice for a therapist. We're in the business of listening to and holding our clients’ memories…and sitting with what can often feel like really, really painful memories.

MH: Yeah.

LF: And so I guess that was there. He also, I mean, David’s words and the way that he describes what memory is was striking to me, and felt so true about what I have experienced in the clinical realm. So I'd love to just give him the credit where it's due and read the words that inspired what I have to talk about today.

MH: Let's hear it!

LF: So he says that “we actually inhabit memory as a living threshold, as a place of choice and volition and imagination, a crossroads where our future diverges, according to how we interpret, or perhaps more accurately how we live the story we inherited.” Yeah, I mean, I can think of so many moments, I can think of how easy it is to get caught. I mean, personally, I think, to get caught in how I remember something went and how it went, and bear down on that place, and certainly can get caught in that place with a client as well, to the point that it really does not feel like it's serving that client anymore. That memory, or the way an event has been remembered.

MH: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LF: Has probably served a purpose, certainly served a purpose, to help keep someone safe…and can get to a really barren, feels like the word, the landscape becomes really dry and barren.

MH: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LF: And yeah, so this idea that we can inhabit our memories as though they are actually a living threshold for new possibility is really exciting to me, and does happen in therapy, that's the work, that's where we get. So that's what was behind, I guess, my choice of a word.

“...that we can inhabit our memories as though they are actually a living threshold for new possibility is really exciting to me.”

— Lauren Furutani, LMFT

MH: Yeah. I love the way you talked about the barrenness. I think you're talking about memory, the difference between memory as static, and memory as a fluid potential space.

LF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MH: To be played with and understood differently. So I'd love to hear more about how you see the use of that, and this concept of a frontier clinically. How do you think about that?

LF: It's funny, I'm caught a little bit on the word “barren.” Actually I've been holding that word for about a year, since the beginning of the pandemic, when you held the poetry class.

MH: Oh yeah.

LF: And I actually, I wrote a poem in that about an experience of feeling caught in a really barren place within myself, with my client.

MH: Yeah.

LF: And it's just funny that that, when I think of memory, and I thought about who comes to mind.

MH: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LF: I didn't even realize necessarily that I was using that word, but it's connected.

MH: Yeah, yeah.

LF: But yeah, so this this idea that there is, yeah, that our memory can actually serve as a frontier for new possibility. Hmm what do I want to say? I think that there's more opportunity in how we hold our memory that sometimes we can't see, and I guess the way that I view the role of myself as a therapist, and the therapist, is to listen for moments, and sometimes this actually can happen without even having our mind around it, sometimes it just happens.

MH: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LF: But the moments where maybe more spontaneously kind of interject and offer, “Well wait, what if? What if it were a certain way"?” Or even just play it out or act it out differently.

MH: Yeah.

LF: And play with it, and use yourself to do something different, or say something different, or think about something differently.

MH: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LF: And I think, for me personally, humor is one of the greatest ways to do something a little silly, maybe, or lighten it a little…but also with a real sincerity and seriousness that offers the opportunity that this can be a fun, different way of thinking about it, a lighter way, and it could also actually be a new way of thinking about it.

“...humor is one of the greatest ways to do something a little silly, maybe, or lighten it a little…but also with a real sincerity and seriousness that offers the opportunity that this can be a fun, different way of thinking about it.”

— Lauren Furutani, LMFT

MH: Yeah. I was just delighting in, I mean, Lauren, I think as you were talking about what you do as a therapist, you were being you as a therapist. I mean that when I'm in a group with you, or any learning setting, it's the most wonderful thing when you lean forward and you say something and you add this vitalizing aspect, and I think that contrast of the barrenness of when we get stuck in a memory or a story about ourselves that doesn't serve us, and the ability to live it differently, to try it on, that's what I'm hearing you to say.

LF: Yeah.

MH: To shake something loose and take the risk as a therapist to be spontaneous like that, and what that offers the client, not in a thinking way, but in an experiential way.

LF: Yeah.

MH: So lovely.

LF: Yeah. I just can't help myself. I'm too in my body all the time. I mean, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but I do live in my body, and I like to offer that to my clients. I think we live very disembodied lives in our culture, and I think that it can feel a little riskier, there's a vulnerability to be myself in that way. But that is who I am, and I really can't help myself.

MH: And, Lauren, I think there's an intelligence to it. I think you're responding, often when you're being that vitalizing spontaneous, you're knowing something on a feeling level, and willing to take the risk action before maybe your mind has caught up with you, and sometimes that's the best thing, because-

LF: Yeah, and I-

MH: Yeah.

LF: Well, sorry to cut you off, I think I'm feeling the client's longing.

MH: Yeah.

LF: And that is, I mean, those are moments that are so ripe for responding, and helping a client response to their own longing.

MH: Yeah.

LF: Yeah, yeah, I think.

MH: Yeah. And to me that shapes the idea of memory as not a static thing. It's like, memory that tells a story of what we're afraid of also tells a story of what we long for.

LF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MH: And so I think you're saying, when a story is told the same way over and over again, it loses connection with the memory of the initial desire that was corrupted or disrupted, and your action maybe syncs up a more fuller story.

LF: Uh-huh (affirmative).

MH: Or expands the narrative to include both what we're afraid of and what we want.

LF: Yeah, yeah. And man, that's exciting work, I think, when you can help a client understand how terrifying it can... when there's been a wound around, particularly, I think, around having one's needs met, which is so often the case. I mean, that's probably one of the most common wounds, but not having one's needs met, or not being able to go after what you want or desire. And yeah, that is such exciting, gratifying work to help someone be able to stand at that threshold and start to move toward understanding why that is so terrifying and has been, and start to play with, maybe I can. I don't know if I'm putting it to words well, but yeah, I think that's the energizing work of therapy.

MH: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

LF: Is helping individuals learn how to have their needs met, and how to negotiate having their needs met with others, when that was a scary or just fraught experience as a young person.

MH: Glad we got to spend some time together today.

Lauren Furutani, MA, LMFT is an advocate for emotional, physical, spiritual, and social health. She blends her psychodynamic and relational orientation with her down-to-earth personality to bring both complexity and ease to the therapeutic space. Lauren received her MA in Counseling Psychology from National University and BA in Psychology & Social Behavior from University of California Irvine. She serves as the Executive Director at MHT.

Dr. Michelle Harwell, PsyD, LMFT is an expert trainer, respected speaker, and licensed therapist in trauma and attachment. She is noted for her specialization in areas of development, attachment, trauma, and neuroscience, and her ability to communicate complex topics with clarity and humor. Michelle completed her PhD in Psychoanalysis from The Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis. She received her BA in English Literature from University of Oklahoma, MA in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary, and MS in Marriage and Family Therapy from the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology.

On Art Therapy, Change & Healing Racism: An Interview with Salina Cobbin, LMFT

January 24, 2021

The following interview was conducted in early December 2020.

Maria Elena Marquez: What inspired you to become an art therapist?

“I guess when I went into the field, I knew I would be facing lots of trauma and lots of other things to deal with. But for some reason, it never crossed my mind that I’d also be dealing with politics and how that will intersect. ”

Salina Cobbin: I was taking a creative writing course at UCLA Extension. At the time, I was interested in writing and exploring that. We would get assignments and with every assignment we did, although it was all fiction, I would see a piece of myself in my writing or a part in the story even though it wasn’t my intention [to insert myself]. I started to realize that writing truly is a form of art — and in every form of art is a piece of you. Whether you’re intending to or not, whatever you create ends up being a representation of your self — it is still a representation of your self. Soon I started to think about how cool it would be to have a studio where people are creating art and then there’s a professional that comes around to help guide you and support you. I thought I invented art therapy (laughs). And then I started Googling things and found out that it is a real practice; a real, existing profession. (laughs). I looked into it further, and I went to various orientations for grad programs. The school that I ended up going to was less than 7 minutes away from my house at the time. I thought it was all meant to be. Meant to be. That is kinda how I landed in art therapy.

Maria Elena: I love your story! So, through the creative writing process, you felt like you really could see parts of yourself. Through that viewing of your self, you were able to imagine things and you thought of a studio where people could engage in their own creative processes.

Salina: Yeah, a place where people could express themselves freely and create art. I imagined someone trained a bit more in psychology who could guide people through self-discovery and art-making. I thought about the importance of it being a community space. I wasn’t initially thinking ‘a therapist’ necessarily…I thought I could figure this out and do it myself. But then I discovered art therapy and it clicked — “Oh, this is a real thing!”

Maria Elena: What about that initial dream of creating a community space for self-discovery do you feel like you presently hold on to?

Salina: I guess I’ve distanced myself from that idea of a community space right now because I’m looking at my goals that are right in front of my face. While working in agencies and in my own private practice, I’ve been trying to fine tuning the demographic that I want to work with… which I do feel like I’ve been able to do. Because I’m such a methodical person, once that is off the list, then I can work towards something that feels like an even bigger vision.

Maria Elena: So, you’re fine-tuning your understanding of the population that you’re most able to serve…the population that you really enjoy working with…so what does that look like — what is that population?

Salina: In the beginning of my career, I went into it thinking that I wanted to work predominantly with at-risk youth. But I’ve learned that I work better with adults. I really like working with people of color and working on how all these different parts of your life shape your identity…whether it’s past traumas, your ethnic background, or different experiences. I think it’s this whole idea of identity that I’m noticing I gravitate towards. I think because I’m bi-racial identity has always been a topic in my life. It’s something that I really love. But also I think it’s important to understand what kind of things shape us and how they impact our relationships to others…and how you see where you fit in and where you don’t fit in.

Maria Elena: Yes, I can see parallels between what you’re saying and how I enjoy working with single Latina women who are searching for their sense of self in their careers, their sense of self in romantic relationships, or their sense of self or adulthood with their parents. Often there’s trauma or intergenerational trauma involved. When you find that population that is such a match for your personal and professional experience, it kinda feels like home.

Salina: It’s comforting and it’s also inspiring. I feel like when I’m with the clients that are such a great match, it’s really inspiring.

Maria Elena: Yes! Okay, let’s shift gears. How have you been taking care of yourself during this time of the COVID pandemic? I know in the beginning, I was shocked. I was terrified…it was hard to grapple with taking care of my self while also being a therapist. And I felt so isolated from my friends and family that I normally lean on for love and support. But now I’m feeling more settled. I’m wondering how that process has been for you…maybe because you’re a planner it was less of a struggle…How was it? And now how are you doing with it all compared to the beginning?

Salina: Right, yeah. In the beginning, it was very shocking. All of a sudden, we had to pick up our things and go home. We didn’t have a lot of time to plan, which, yes, planning is kinda my thing. I mostly went into a mode of trying to be very structured. Structure is comforting for me. I did find that because I was so focused on setting up new structures that I wasn’t really addressing the underlying stress and other emotions that were coming up. Instead I was focused on the structure. And when I wasn’t or couldn’t stick to the structure, then I’d get upset. I realized a lot about myself — with all this change that happens (and change that isn’t coming from myself), that it causes me a lot of stress. I’m learning a lot more about just letting things be….and learning to stop fighting against the change. It stills comes up but this stance has helped decrease some of the stress. In the beginning, it was all change, change, change…work structure change, changing work policies, going virtual. I was just like “I don’t wanna do that!” But my resistance to change was making me even more upset. Also trying to work it out first…and then it if doesn’t work, complain later. This has been a big one for me. And also trying to connect with some people…mostly with family and with one of my cousins in particular. It’s been very different though just staying at home. Learning to be bored and being okay with being bored. That’s also been big in helping me cope. I try to do exercises here and there…a little inconsistently. And accept that things are a bit of a mess right now. That was a long answer!

Maria Elena: What are some things that you accomplished this year that you’re proud of? I know that 2020 has been a difficult year and it’s tough to think of the good when things are so challenging and when things we had in mind for ourselves have slowed down or been interrupted…but yeah, what are you proud of?

Salina: Becoming licensed. That was a big accomplish this year! It’s true that I don’t really focus on the good as much. On a self-care, I’ve been mindful of eating and sleeping — and regulating that stuff…and finding ways to put self-care at the forefront. I think I’m doing much better with that. Hmm..I think also trying to figure what direction I’m going into, career-wise. I was confused for awhile. And now I know what to move more and more into private practice.

Maria Elena: I would also like us to talk about politics given that 2020 was so marked by social, cultural, and political change and upheaval. I wonder what the white person reading this might better understand from the clients (people of color) that you work with — that your clients might be hurting and yet also proud to be who they are. This feels really important. I’m not sure where to begin but what are your thoughts?

Salina: Yeah, it does feel important. There’s a lot to say. I guess I’ll start here…I have been reading this book recently and the topic is related to the current social climate and specifically with racial injustices and the Black Lives Matter movement. It talks about this whole idea of racism and how a lot of people who don’t understand are like ”Okay we get it, just move on…Why are you still reacting this way? Why are you still hurt? Why are you continually bringing up racism?”…this idea that slavery and therefore, racism is in the past. This book was talking about how in this country, it has never really been acknowledged…it has always been something swept under the rug, which differs from Germany. In Germany, they have actually acknowledged what happened to the Jewish people during the Nazi regime. The country has taken down statues that are offensive from that era. In America, they just don’t. It feels like it’s offensive in the US to even bring up taking down a confederate statue. There was a reference in the book that spoke to therapy…when you go to therapy, a therapist isn’t gonna tell you “Forget about the past.” No - we need to address what’s happened in the past in order to make changes. You would really do some damage as a therapist if you were to deny that past for someone. I think that is happening for a lot of people. The denial is damaging — it translates to “You’re not hearing me, you’re not understanding me, and you don’t care.” It does bring up a lot of feelings for people [of color]. That’s the first thing I wanted to say.

Maria Elena: What’s the title of the book that you’ve been reading?

Salina: It’s called Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. Along with it, I was listening to the podcast that Oprah did with her. It’s very informative.

“We need to address what’s happened in the past in order to make changes. You would really do some damage as a therapist if you were to deny that past [full of racial injustices] for someone. I think that is happening for a lot of people. The denial is damaging — it translates to ‘You’re not hearing me, you’re not understanding me, and you don’t care.’ It does bring up a lot of feelings for people [of color]. ”

Maria Elena: That’s so powerful - to give a space of healing to your clients and to allow them a space to say “My pain hasn’t been acknowledged. My ancestors’ pain hasn’t been acknowledged…and that’s why it’s still deeply embedded in me. And this country that I love and that should be free for all of us hasn’t acknowledged that.” It’s such a difficult time in our history to be a therapist but also what an honor. That’s so powerful.

Salina: Right, absolutely. I guess when I went into the field, I knew I would be facing lots of trauma and lots of other things to deal with. But for some reason, it never crossed my mind that I’d also be dealing with politics and how that will intersect. Like you said, it is an honor. I also feel like I’m learning along with my clients. It’s nice to know that “Wow, this person feels safe enough to express this and also, thank goodness, because there aren’t many safe spaces, unfortunately, for all people without being invalidated or told that ‘Okay, we get it but….’”

Maria Elena: Right, and sometimes even unintentionally a white therapist might feel uncomfortable and then quickly change the subject about race…and then the invalidation or denial is happening again and now with the person that I’ve told my deepest, darkest thoughts to. So, it’s amazing to see you…a woman who is an art therapist and a licensed marriage and family therapist, a woman who is bi-racial in this field. You can hold that and someone can say and be like “me too.” It might not even be said, but it is felt.

Salina: Clients will comment “I don’t have to change the way that I speak when I’m in the session with you…because it’s not coming off as threatening or slang…it’s just the way that I speak with you.” It’s pretty cool.

Maria Elena: You’re amazing! Thank you so much for talking with me today.

Salina Cobbin, LMFT, is an art therapist with a private practice in Studio City. She has personal and professional experience working with identity issues that arise for multi-ethnic/multi-cultural individuals, families, and single parents.

Maria Elena Marquez, MA, is a bilingual (Spanish-English) Associate Marriage and Family Therapist, IMF #103470, working under the supervision of Brittany Kiko Reimann, LMFT. As an art therapist, Maria is passionate about helping clients unravel complex cultural beliefs and family pressures through the use of expressive arts.

The Year of Paradox: Keep Your Eyes on the Horizon

December 12, 2020

“I have heard trauma being described as anything that happens too fast, too soon, and/or too much such that those who endure it are not prepared to manage and integrate it effectively. I would add that another aspect of trauma is when we cannot hold the complicated and contradictory nature of these ‘TOO anything’ experiences. ”

It was early Thanksgiving morning. I woke up with a feeling of dis-ease. My body lay warm under bedding but the air around my face felt chilled, more by an eerie presence than the cool autumn air of our bedroom. I was on my back and paralyzed; legs pressed together as if attempting to merge my two human legs into a mermaid’s tail and arms pinned – one bent over my chest and the other pulling tight at my side. The only muscles that seemed to obey my mind’s command were the twelve that control the movement of my eyes. I peered to my right.

My fiancée laid gently breathing with his back inches from my unmovable figure. His presence was familiar but my eyes seemed to catch a lesser known form which almost hovered over his blanketed silhouette. I couldn’t quite make it out, but it felt human. My fears lay less about sensing this supernatural entity (as it felt benevolent rather than threatening) and more in the novelty of my presentation of symptoms.

I immediately began to diagnose and rationalize what was happening. “Mild visual hallucinations co-occurring during episodic sleep paralysis,” I thought. “Just wait a few moments…this will pass...average duration of this phenomenon is under 3 minutes.” I even justified the occurrence to myself: “What a year this has been, of course, I’d experience something like this. I bet there is a strong correlation between stress and sleep paralysis.”

Soon enough the hovering figure and my paralysis dissipated. First to reappear was the control of my toes. And as soon as I could utilize my arms and trunk, I turned to my bedside table and picked up my phone: 2:22am it read. “Odd” I thought and I noted this would be a exciting story to share with my partner, as it is customary for us to share our previous night’s dreams with one another in the morning.

But before our alarm could do its work, I woke up to my partner wide-awake and propped up on his elbow. It was still dark out. “What’s wrong?” I asked.

“It happened,” he replied. “Grandpa’s gone. I know it”.

No more than 10 seconds later his phone rang. It was his mom. She told us Grandpa Joe (her father) had passed away early that morning.

“We are the paradox – continual growth amid the destruction. ”

After spending a few minutes of sharing grief and memories with his mom, he hung up the phone and we held one another. While this wasn’t a surprise (Grandpa had been diagnosed with Covid-19 two weeks ago and at 95-years-old statistics were against him), as with any passing, the finality hit hard and was compounded by the difficult reality of this pandemic: his family could not be physically with him as he passed.

I have heard trauma being described as anything that happens too fast, too soon, and/or too much such that those who endure it are not prepared to manage and integrate it effectively. I would add that another aspect of trauma is when we cannot hold the complicated and contradictory nature of these ‘TOO anything’ experiences. When terrible things happen, no matter how terrible things get, paradoxically there are simultaneously positive elements to come across… if we are able to hold the complexity of the whole situation. In other words, the ‘TOO anything’ of the trauma response makes it harder to see the ‘and’ in any situations – the good with the bad, the beautiful with the ugly, and joy with the pain.

And this year has been a consummate paradox: never-ending and passing in the blink of an eye; interpersonally isolative yet at times collectively connecting; communally traumatic while somehow showcasing our basic resiliency and unfettered hope. Though this pandemic may feel unprecedented (and in ways it is), this experience has made me reflect and imagine how traumatic events actually scaffold human existence throughout history.

Given the unknown intricacy of our natural universe, occurrences that are ‘TOO anything’ are experienced all the time on an individual and societal level. Natural disasters, war and persecution, death and destruction – one may say our joys are the exception to an overall experience of suffering. And yet, despite being continually traumatized, we (as a whole) carry on and continue to grow/mature/evolve. We are the paradox – continual growth amid the destruction.

This year has brought us a lot of ‘TOO anything’ experiences. After losing my partner’s grandfather on Thanksgiving morning, we then met with my family for a socially-distanced backyard Thanksgiving lunch where I blew my 92-year-old grandmother a kiss from more than 6 feet away. The pain of losing one family member was punctuated by the gratitude of being with family and that joy of being together for Thanksgiving was marred with the physical constraints of social distancing. I sat in the paradox of it, me and my partner at our own fold-out table situated more than 6 feet from the fold-outs of other households. My feelings vacillated minute by minute – the muck and the magic; the pleasure and the pain; the love and the loss.

I recall my feelings at the start of 2020. There was so much hope for the future. Cue 11 months later: a contentious election, a societal reckoning of social injustice, and resurgence of Covid-19 cases, which now hits (for me) even closer to home. I am overwhelmed and disheartened. Some days I struggle to show up for myself… let alone my family, friends, and clients. And yet I’ll continue to hold the paradox of this experience and try to remember that good things can happen while terrible things are underway. As Grandpa Joe was known for saying: “Keep your eyes on the horizon.” I’ll keep looking up and out, taking it all in, and letting each day provide whatever experience is meant for me to go through. I hope that in the midst of your overwhelm, you can allow for the paradox and keep your eyes on the horizon.

Lauren Ziel, MSW is a Registered Associate Clinical Social Worker, ASW #76483, working under the supervision of Michelle Harwell, LMFT. Through the use of movement and mindfulness, Lauren develops specialized treatment for anxiety, depression, eating disorders, challenges in life-stage transitions, relational difficulties, and identity/intrapersonal development.

The Embeddedness of Racism in Psychoanalysis: An Interview with Dr. Veronica Abney

October 26, 2020

Chelsea Small: Welcome. Thank you so much for being here and talking with me today about your work studying the experiences of Black psychoanalysts. I'm excited to learn more.

In your final paper for your doctoral degree, you mentioned that less than 2% of the psychoanalysts in America are Black. I'm curious if you could start by speaking a bit about the current racial landscape of the psychoanalytic world, its history, and some of the implications and meanings.

Dr. Veronica Abney: I think it's still a pretty racist profession. There seems to be, at least here in Los Angeles, a few more African Americans that are in the profession than since I trained…When I started here in LA, there was one Black analyst practicing. And that was it...They're more in New York. That seems to be a place where I think Black analysts are more welcomed in the general mental health community. I really want to do more interviews [to continue the research conducted for the dissertation] if I could ever find the time to do it, because I got more and more names as I went on, from word of mouth, and I discovered all these other people that I didn't know were there. It was a really daunting task to try to identify these people in the United States. I called Institutes and they tell me things like they don't know. You don't know? How could you not know if you have somebody Black? So, I went with the American [American Psychoanalytic Association], and they gave me four names. But, you know, a lot of Black analysts are not part of the American because of the way it is.

Chelsea: Yeah, those numbers do seem extremely low compared to other mental health practitioners, like social workers or Marriage and Family Therapists. My next question is about why that might be. In your paper you speak about analyzability and the primitive as mechanisms of racism that are specific to the psychoanalytic world, and the ways that it has created its own arm of the racist system. I'm wondering if you could briefly define for our audience the term analyzability and the notion of the primitive, and talk a little bit about how they have been used as a form of exclusion.

Veronica: Well, when I was in training in social work school, there was a way of talking about people that made them not as desirable as a patient. A lot of times, Black patients were seen as being just in need of supportive treatment. Not anything deeper; nor any uncovering work. And that comes from a really long time ago, when Blacks were seen as people who didn't have good impulse control, weren't articulate, and were not able to self reflect. They were just, you know, people from the jungle…When Jung came to the US for a visit at one point during the early 1900s, maybe around 1920 something, he said that Americans were really lucky to have Blacks to really study primitive peoples. That was just the way that they thought. And it went into practice. So, in practice that meant that you weren't appropriate for an analysis. Therefore, you couldn't be an analyst. So, who wants to join a profession that thinks of them that way? And these are the kinds of concepts and ideas that were in all of the mental health professions at some point…though their language may not have been as dramatic. They wouldn't come in, in 1970, and say “well this is a primitive jungle bunny,” that was a negative term for African Americans, they wouldn't say, this is a primitive person, they would just say, “They need a supportive treatment. They need something more concrete.”

Chelsea: And by saying someone needs supportive treatment they are basically saying that they're not capable of benefiting from analysis.

Veronica: Exactly right. I remember my best friend who, unfortunately is no longer here, but I remember when we were in social work school, she went to one of the institutes in Boston to get an analysis, and they turned her down. And she was the most neurotic person…But they turned her down. Because she was Latina. I had a colleague who once was told by her analyst that she didn't have an unconscious when they first started working, and now she does. I mean, I have never heard of anything so fucking stupid in my life.

Chelsea: It seems like that contradicts everything that analytic theory would suggest. How could she not have an unconscious?

Veronica: Because you're just id. That's how people of color were seen, as id. They had id. They didn't have good ego skills. I was trained in ego psychology. Which was pretty rigid. But that was the feeling, ego skills are poor, and that there's not enough super ego. That's how they explained it, theoretically. I think that California therapists are much more radical in some of their approach to life. And they really rejected psychoanalysis because of that. Does that answer the question?

Chelsea: It does. It really speaks to the languaging of racism and to the sub-system that has maintained the analytic world as being very exclusive, very white, very privileged, very small. In some way, it feels like there is a closing in, when there could be so much benefit from analytic work being more accessible.

My next question is about theory and about the way that, since the psychoanalytic world has been so white…how Eurocentrism and white-centeredness has trickled down into the theory, and what’s missing from that body of work that has been developed so overwhelmingly by white people.e.

Veronica: Well, there's a lot missing. It's just another example of how racism is embedded in all of our systems. In every profession, one way or another. They had the theory, and they used their theory to say these people are not appropriate for this. They didn't have to do that. The theory didn't dictate that they view black people, in particular, in this way. They chose to use it that way. Bringing it to today, I think it's wonderful that we have theories that are more based on contextuality, we've got intersubjectivity, dynamic systems theory, these theories allow for a different explanation…All of us organize our lives, our experience, based on our cultural background, whether you know it or not. In the past we had theory that was, like you said, very Eurocentric. And there was no desire, or even thought about whether or not this would fit someone from a different background. Although there were people in Germany before the Second World War, who had a psychoanalytic clinic and they took in poor people. Because poor people were considered the same way as Black people. You know, you're not educated and you live in a dirty apartment and you're this or that—so they worked with people in a broader context. I think we could really do some great work right now if we could really look at the benefit of these of these theories for people who are different.

I think a lot of times when you work with people of color, you've got to deal with layers of trauma. In order for that safety to occur…So, we have to use our relationship and that's why it's really important for white therapists to really do their work. And not to hide behind, “I'm not a racist.” Because I know I have lots of prejudicial kinds of feelings. And I have to be aware of them, because I can’t overcome them if I’m not. I tell this story a lot of times when I teach, about this case I had many years ago. A child was admitted to the adolescent unit at UCLA and initially I was just the social worker on the case. Eventually, it became my case but that's another long story.

Anyway, I remember meeting the parents, the first day she came in and I had to do two sessions with them that day because they lived far away. And so, the first session, the dad comes in, and he's wearing Levi's and a big belt with huge buckle, and some kind of cowboy hat. And they were from the desert, and you know, we talk really bad about families from the desert at UCLA. The kids were a mess when they would come in because there really wasn't much care out there. And then it was a unique set of people that initially were living out in places like the Inland Empire. And so, I was like okay these are desert people. And the dad in the middle of the first session pulls a knife out of his pocket and starts cleaning his fingernails. And my first thought was “redneck.” So I just checked it in. And then the second session I had with them, the dad's age led me to ask him if he had been in Vietnam. And he said yes and I said, “What was that like for you?” And he started to sob. He said, not even his wife had ever asked him that. And we connected right there. And it was the beginning of a really great relationship. The child was in the hospital for nine months so we spent a lot of time together. And after that for years this family would send me little gifts for the holidays and things like that. If I had not logged in my mind, “redneck,” that initial reaction to him would have surfaced in a way that was not good for him. And by being aware of it, I was able to make sure that I was available to him. And that I was really taking good care of him and not just writing him off. Because he would have been the kind of guy that would have been easy to write off just based on those descriptions I gave you, like pulling a knife out of your pocket. But I'm a believer in that we can't try to push those feelings down. We have to be aware of them, then we can overcome them.

Chelsea: That connects nicely to my last question which is about what you've seen work well. What have you've experienced that has worked well to make this field less racist or to confront some of the prejudice and racism that is in the air.

Veronica: Oh, I think you have to talk about it. It has to be out there…And so that's what I believe about how this has to be approached. We have to do—what now people are saying since what's been happening in our country—you have to do the work. And that white people have to do the work. It's not my job to teach you. It's your job to read, to study, to go out and have different experiences, and to ask serious questions, not questions like, “Well, What do I do?” Well, you know, I’m not in that room with you. But you could start by working on you, because then you will be open to understanding this person, to hearing this person, to not invalidating this person's experience. That's something that happens a lot for white therapists because it's a different experience. They think Black people are just being paranoid. Because we talk about having to deal with white people in these racist spaces and what it brings up for us…Those are the kinds of things I think a lot of times get therapists in trouble. They don't really understand or know the experience. They think we're in a fucking post racial society. And we're not. As you can see…And if people can just ignore that? What does that say to the other person? So maybe I'm saying that there's a component of this too, of doing some social justice work, of really putting yourself out there. That's my viewpoint about how to deal with it. It's not easy, people don't want to do it. [But] I think it is part of the moment that people are thinking more about this now wondering more, after seeing a man killed on their own television set.

Chelsea: Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your mind with me and the MHT community.

Veronica: Take care. Bye. Bye.

Veronica Abney, LCSW, PhD, is a training and supervising psychoanalyst with the Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis-Los Angeles. She specializes in trauma associated with childhood sexual abuse and practices psychoanalysis and psychotherapy in the Los Angeles area. She works with preteens, adolescents, and adults.

Chelsea Small, LCSW, believes in the wisdom of the therapeutic relationship to ignite transformative growth. She has extensive experience working with people impacted by trauma, domestic violence, and the effects of emotional dysregulation.

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